It’s not really about just an algorithm deciding that you will die on this run.
It’s more like the algorithm deciding “Ok, on this one you have 2 structures benefiting you right next to each other even though the rats do untankable damage, you have a 60% chance to make it if you use that advantage?”
and on the next pocket “Well, I just spawned two gas zones on you that reduce your repair rate, you already had a low chance of surviving this but if you don’t get out of those you are ■■■■■■, 10%”.
To put it simply, you always have a hand in surviving, the algorithm is just deciding the environment. You will have to be able to see the opportunities it offers you and thus it’s not JUST the roll of the dice.
Anyway, I do agree that they have to make the encounter winnable if said environment is working for you, but making the run very hard to win if it works against you is fine design too.
That newbro will think the exact thing that will make him want more: “I’m gonna get a better caracal and I’m gonna win this thing”.
This is the kind of thinking you want to engage people in a game, and exploding the badly shipped fit is exactly what you want to do to engage that guy.
No, this will have the complete opposite effect. These Abyssal pockets are dicey propositions for Omegas with V skills, implants and Faction/Deadspace fit. I can’t imagine this will be at all appealing to Alphas on any level. If that’s the intent (to limit, restrict or otherwise prevent Alphas from fully participating), then it will definitely succeed.
As it stands, however - the prospect of losing billions in ships and implants at a chance to make maybe 50-100m in loot doesn’t exactly hold any great appeal. I can do that now with virtually zero risk and without the accompanying level of futility and frustration at RNG aspects completely beyond my control.
Except that you can’t learn from randomness, because there is no pattern to figure out. There is no “algorithm”, just a random number generator without any sense for meaning or difficulty.
You know, this is exactly the problem I have with “rogue-like” games. I’ve purchased and played a few on Steam, and none of them have ever caught my interest, and probably for that exact reason.
In a normal game, you fail at something, you can adjust what you do. In a roguelike, there is no constructive feedback. You can succeed once because all the dice rolls went your way despite you not being good at whatever thing. You can also fail repeatedly because you did everything right but all the dice rolls went against you.
That said, “rogue-like” is a very popular thing for games to attempt on Steam, so there’s definitely a market for it. For those that already play EvE and get that occasional rogue-like itch, this will make the game more appealing for them. But I have a feeling that it’s a very niche audience here. This isn’t just another rogue-like game where you do the thing perfectly, die anyway, then restart the game to try again. This is a game of loss, and repeatedly flinging small fortunes into the abyss and hoping the game won’t F you over this time doesn’t really work with this game’s framework.
But that seems to be a concern only for the higher tiers. From what I hear on the forums, It sounds like 1-3 are perfectly reasonable and I actually expect those to be very popular. If anything, I just lament that all this very interesting work went into making a high-difficulty dungeon with loot that threatens to unbalance modules, instead of using these same systems to make missions with high levels of variables and changeable parts.
rouge = a shade of red. Rogue is that wild and crazy guy running around with his hair on fire.
My advice to people i snot to bring super expensive bling fits into higher-tier Abyssal Space. You WILL lose ships and pods.
Currently whether or not you survive is completely random. I feel that the spawns need to be better scaled with tier. One time I blew through a tier 4 with no problem. Very next time same ship, fit, type, and tier I got absolutely violated in the very first pocket.
The way things are now this content will be utterly abandoned in a month.
Well, not urterly… 600 - 700 milion ISK HAC have very high chance to survive T1-T2 Abyss space. Especially if you use drones not as main weapon, but as additional tank (they agro damage pretty quick). Gila works up to T2 level also, though you can be unlucky with NPC killing your drones faster, than you can scope them.
So I believe most Abyss players will farm T1-T2, making their loot very cheap. And some hardcore PvE players will dive into higher tiers as well. Cause they would hate to lose their ship to other players (PVP - averse adults) but will not mind to lose rather expensive fits from time to time, solving very interesting Abyss PvE puzzles … Abyss is not for everyone just as WH is not for everyone. Sandbox, you know? Take it as another , pretty interesting color of that colorfull game.
The smart play is to let the lemmings throw themselves “into the Abyss” (sorry, couldn’t resist) - and then wait for the eventual changes CCP will be forced to implement due to the massive outcry.
I do hope you aren’t a developer. This sort of thinking is absolutely the type of thinking that will ensure the abyss is dead at birth.
“Sandbox” is not an excuse for a lack of imagination in game design, and one does need to remember that the idea is to encourage people to explore experiment and learn, and not to be a sadistic voyeur sport where one delights in creating suffering for it’s own sake upon your customer base…
That does sound as current Abyss design, indeed. What I wanted to say is that no one farm C6 WH PvE solo in not capital ship. Abyss high tier PvE feels a bit that way for me.
I do appreciate the fact that the sites are not entirely predictable, and players need to actively adapt to changing circumstances. The core design is possibly the best thing introduced in years. I also appreciate that the high level sites will encourage more skilled players in more specialised ships and fits.
Where I am concerned is that currently there is an automatic fail mechanic, partly due to the core design preventing adapting the ship once in, but mainly some pockets and random spawns are simply not beatable even without the automatic time out.
Using your C6 example, if sites made it impossible to leave, and you had hard knocks drop on you in a high proportion of cases, and you couldn’t warp in assistance, or leave until you had killed every one of them, oh additionally you have 20 minutes, have fun… how many C6 sites would be run?
That’s not about being more interesting, that is more about making sure no one runs them.
The critical changes would be changing the timer to allow the loot to destruct after 20 minutes and NOT The player , And one to be able to bail out of impossible spawns, again forfeiting the loot. Toning down the extreme spawns would help as well
The “kill the player” mechanic is absolutely not a requirement. I strongly believe it was added to pacify the potential CSM rebellion against instanced PVE. Whilst the CSM has a role, that role should not be to kill anything that doesn’t suit their masters goals.
This philosophy can only lead to EVERY form of PVE that isn’t bounty farming in null being killed at birth, no matter how creative and imaginative CCP are and How much they want PVE players to enjoy and embrace the game.
I sympathise with CCP, they probably expect to rebalance this, once the CSM and their masters have accepted that it wasn’t as bad as they painted it.
I remind CCP that there is only one chance to make a good first impression, they won’t be able to undo the damage done to people’s perceptions later. It would need to be dropped and an entirely new attempt made. And that’s expensive and hard, especially after an abject failure, to justify.
The alternative is to feed into the philosophy, that there’s no point investing in PVE “they never appreciate it anyway” where the reality is PVE players DESPERATELY will grab at any crumb and try to find reasons to make the most of even the smallest improvements. Feeding the anti PVE philosophy suits a few, not the many, no matter how loud the few are.
Bingo. Based on their track record, I just don’t see this happening in 8 days (and it’s probably less than 8 days since they’ll have to lock some things in a few days prior). Into The Abuss is going to follow closely on the failures of Resource Wars and Forward Operating Bases…
They need to have the strength, to say to their detractors “Shut up! We are going to make PVE for players who want to do PVE, and make it as good as we can!” And stop listening to those who want all PVE development to fail, so more time can be spent on null.
This can become an absolute triumph, a complete new dawn for EVE and CCP! It has the potential to be the best thing they have done in years!
However as it stands, compromised decisions will absolutely have the opposite effect.
Do CCP have the strength to stand up against those loud voices who are determined to make failure the result? I hope so. Minor changes will make the difference, well within their capabilities (and probably already there until changed to satisfy those who shouted loudest against instanced PVE).
Make those changes please, and let into the abyss be an absolute triumph!
No theyre not. Even in HS, it’s unrealistic. They will prob be camped within the main hub and mission systems. There are not enough gankers and probers to probe them all down and wait 15-20min.
And thats just in HS. I know people think LS and null is some large, intimidating space where bloodthirsty mongrels roam, but as someone who roams nullsec daily, ive gone hours without seeing another pilot (thats not an intel bot). Most roamers in null are going to ignore these sigs. Not worth the wait and with so many systems, we arent going to spend time probing them all.
Great Wildlands for example has so many empty systems, you could run these back to back in some offshoot pocket thats not part of the main pipe and be way safer than anywhere in HS. GW also has multiple entry and exit points that are rarely camped.
Coming in with an instawarp inty and setting up bounces beforehand will also allow you to bypass bubbles with ease.
TL;DR - These will not be camped like people claim they will be. Move out of hub/mission systems, will be fine. Go to null if you really want to be safe.
At this point camping is such a secondary issue as to be little more than a minor annoyance, one isn’t worried about the mosquito when dealing with a swamp full of alligators. The “make PVE hurt” problems are far more of an issue.
Yes, places like null-sec and wormholes (where it can be locked down) will be relatively safe. That is, if the RNG doesn’t kill you in F4 or F5 filaments…
Given a choice of running C5/C6’s, ratting or Rorqual mining (with little to no risk and expected income) - what would you do? I know what I’d do - and it wouldn’t be Into the Abyss…
