Okay, so the Corax still don’t get a single drone despite it’s visible drone bay, the Vexor still has 6 animated hard points while all versions have only 4 high slots (except the Guardian, which has 5) and I’m still waiting for a detailed explanation about this design choice.
Also, any chance that the Celestis will get something more useful instead of it’s 3 missile launchers?
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Overall, I’m very happy to see these changes. Not all of them hit the mark IMO, but they’re exactly the sort of thing we need more of. Honestly my only major complaint is that this pass didn’t hit even more ships.
Rifter: 100% on board with this. Potential arty fits don’t need the utility high at all, and the extra low will still be more useful for the brawlers.
Dragoon: This ship just got scary. The ability to have prop, scram, and cap boost all at the same time probably triples the combat power of the ship, and it’s got decent fitting and tank. The loss of the 6th highslot is pretty much negligible. This is gonna become a pretty scary 1v1 ship. Honestly, I’m perfectly fine with that - I like t1 ships being relevant, and I don’t think it’s going to be OP, just good.
Corax: Better than it used to be, but it’s still bad. A bit faster and less sluggish, sure. A 5%ish buff to shield HP, whatever. It’s still got atrocious fitting and a slot layout and bonus setup that don’t really fit together well. It needs a bit more fitting at least; why the dragoon got a fitting bump and not the corax confuses me.
Arbitrator: This is one that’ll take some pondering. It’s definitely a nice buff, but it’ll take some theorycrafting to figure out what sorts of new fits have just become possible. The lock range alone however is a long overdue fix; an ewar cruiser with such short lock range was a very weird oversight to begin with.
Bellicose: A nice buff, and you can copy-paste the comment above about lockrange, but it’s still not going to be a viable combat cruiser. The problem is simply damage - 4 launchers is just not enough. The celestis and blackbird are at -1 total slot compared to the combat cruisers (13 instead of 14), but that’s fine since they’re not hybrid combat ships. The arbitrator also has 13 total slots, but it’s a droneboat and they always have -1 slot, and it has the full drone bay, drone bandwidth, drone bonus, and unbonused turrets/missiles you’d expect for an amarr droneboat cruiser, so its DPS isn’t any worse off than if it was a full fledged combat cruiser - it just misses whatever the second bonus would have been. The bellicose, however, is also only at 13 slots, and it is neither a non-combat ship like the celestis and blackbird nor a droneboat like the arbitrator, and so this results in it having decidedly below-par DPS due to lacking the 5th highslot and launcher - unlike the arbitrator, it is worse off in damage compared to a full fledged combat cruiser version of itself. To make a long story short, the bellicose not getting the full 14 slots and 5 launchers that a normal missile combat cruiser would get represents a definite oversight, and this ship simply needs more DPS. One could add a 5th highslot and launcher and further increase the fitting buffs to account for the extra weapon fitted, or one could simply increase the ROF bonus to 7.5% like the stabber - both produce pretty similar results, and would bring its DPS up to relevant levels.
Omen: Simple, straightforward, and probably pretty effective. I approve, though again like the arbitrator will need some theorycrafting to see what fits it opens up.
Stabber: this isn’t what I was expecting, but it’ll likely be reasonably effective. I still want a TINY little fitting buff, though, even if it doesn’t get a slot layout change. The fact that you just can’t reasonably arty fit it, at all, is dumb. If medium ACs ever get some love it’ll probably be alright.
Tristan/vexor: no complaints here. Both have been very good ships for a long time, and they’ll both still be good even after the changes.
For the future, I’m quite looking forward to seeing a pass on the AFs, and for pete’s sake please give the cyclone a 6th launcher or the same 7.5% RoF change please. ^^
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This, I think. The Rifter’s not just ‘that armor-tanked frigate’ - it’s the real brute of the Matari frigate hulls, and should be carrying a full rack of guns.
At the same time, if you want to make the alpha clone selection better, you need to provide them better selection of roles, not just parity of dps. Right now, if you’re an industrialist or a miner, you’re gallente. Why? The variety of specialized haulers. Yes, the Hoarder’s got a 50k m3 ammo bay, which makes it a great ammo truck if you’re going somewhere that’s safe to bring a T1 hauler but for some reason, you can’t dock up and get ammo from the stockpile you moved in earlier.
In PvP, similar things apply. Tracking disruption etc are all well and good , but there’s an order of priority. Do you want a guy with a tracking disruptor, or do you want a guy with a point? If you can’t hold them down, you probably aren’t going to worry about trying to keep them from fighting back, or keeping them in close… because you can’t hold them down. If you want more non-Gallente alphas, it’s time to stop saying ‘each race gets X ewar type’. Otherwise, most players will stick to the ewar type they see as ‘mattering’ the most… and especially for small-scale stuff and solo pvp… that’s the ability to keep the other guy from getting away.
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This definitely isn’t the right place for this sort of question, and I’m definitely too stoopid about the meta to know whether these changes are good or not (most of the replies seem positive, I guess? So they’re probably good?). But you said this at the end:
Next Steps
We hope this pass, while not addressing every balance issue, sets a good tone for the kind of changes we want to make. We haven’t nailed down the next set of changes in detail, but we are looking at Tech I Battlecruisers and Battleships, Pirate and Navy faction ships, and Tech II classes like Assault Frigates and Heavy Assault Cruisers all as potential candidates. We’ll keep you up to date as we progress and hope to have consistent, incremental changes like these coming at a quick pace alongside long-term reworks and totally new ships.
(emphasis mine).
Some requests for new ships:
- while you’re rounding out pirate lineups upwards (adding caps to already existing factions), I’d like to see the subcap lineup rounded out as well: pirate destroyers and especially pirate battlecruisers.
- Also for adding new pirate factions: as already pointed out on the old forum, seven factions require gallente ship skills, while the rest only get five each. Rounding out the pirate lineup (so that all pairings are equally represented) would take three more factions: Cal-Min, Cal-Am, and Min-Am. Not sure how these would fit into the lore at all, but I’d like to see those ships someday.
Sorry for being somewhat OT. Please keep being aggressive with rebalances, it’s good work!
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I want to see a cov-ops SOE destroyer!
Also, I think we could have 2 pirate factions for each combination, but the Caldari-Minmatar is the top priority.
EDIT:
I purpose yet another Gallente-Amarr faction: fast, armored missile boats.
Amarr bonuses: 10% EM and thermal damage, 15% missile velocity (per level).
Gallente bonuses: 10% armor repair amount, 20% armor plate mass reduction (per level).
Role bonuses, missile flight time, armor plate fitting requirement reduction.
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This. Very hard to fit hull without non combat rigs. It is T1 hull it should be easy to fit without compromises.
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The Mordu’s ships were originally intended to be this, I think, but then they noticed where Mordu’s Legion’s NPC space is.
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I just imagined them all looking at each other thinking ‘She must mean you’, and amusingly all being right…
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Glad to see these changes.
As you update these Alpha-friendly ships’ stats, please consider giving each hull’s infotext a quick pass as well. As new pilots click through the ships in the Ship Tree, they read in-game ship descriptions that are outdated, and occasionally misleading. For example, the Atron is described as “a good harvester when it comes to mining,” the Vigil’s description touts its “use of jammers”, the Probe’s “hard outer coating makes it difficult to destroy” (in spite of having the second-lowest HP of all frigates), and many many descriptions don’t allude to the unqiue roles each hull plays. In a way, I get it–the infotext is partly flavor, intended to provide backstory and immersion. And sure, there are better descriptions of each ship on the world wide internets. But the in-game text is likely new players’ very first exposure. Shouldn’t it help new players rather than mis-informing them?
This is quick, easy work. There is no checking for balance, no downstream impacts on people’s fits, it’s just text. You might even convince some of your paying players to do the work for free. An idea to consider.
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Think these changes, and the new approach to balancing, are a definite step in the right direction.
Cheers to the devs and the csm guys who have been pushing for this.
While you’re looking at small improvements to ships, I’d really love to see the condor get some attention as I think it’s easily the weakest of the attack frigates. Perhaps make its damage bonus similar to the hookbill, where kinetic still gets the most damage, but em, explosive and thermal damage is also bonused, just less than kinetic.
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Like:
“The Rifter is a very powerful combat frigate and can easily tackle the best frigates out there. It has gone through many radical design phases since its inauguration during the Minmatar Rebellion. The Rifter has a wide variety of offensive capabilities, making it an unpredictable and deadly adversary.”?
Yeah, that needs some overhaul, since ‘tackle’ has a definite connotation that isn’t what’s meant there, and the ‘wide variety of offensive capabilities’ is really ‘AC or Arty?’.
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Bellicose and Arbitrator: +20km locking range.
Finally. I’ve never seen much use for the Arbitrator when a Crucifier has the same number of mid slots, longer lock range, and much greater speed. This should really help them out.
Also excited to try out the Rifter and Dragoon with +1 mid slot.
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Godamnit, I just bought several Vexors for mission running. Losing 100 PG pretty much kills any good fits on it. I want reimbursement! 
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refit all the Bus ships . . .
well if it needs to be done it will get done
m
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Yeah, especially since the Slasher is the tackle frigate.
The Rifter has always been the most popular Minmatar frigate (and still is), but it isn’t performing quite as well as its competition. We are going to switch the utility high, which doesn’t get used very often, to a low. Hopefully this makes way for some new options as an armor brawler or an artillery platform that will serve to separate the Rifter from the Slasher and the Breacher.
-1 High slot +1 Low slot
I’m sorry but just exactly what is the reason behind turning the Rifter into a long range kiting slow moving armor tank frigate? The Slasher is a short range tackle frigate and the Breacher is a long range missile frigate. The Rifter frigate should be a cross between those two frigates with a variety of fitting options, not pigeonholed into a specific single use spot.
The Rifter performs best when used as a fast combat frigate with AC’s and rocket launcher, not some slow moving armor tank frigate using slow firing Arty’s. One of the easiest Rifter fit ups for new players to do is a passive shield tank that utilizes speed and applies quick DPS.
This Rifter change you want to implement will basically make that ship even more unused. Good job on killing the only good T1 fast combat frigate Minmatar has.
5 Likes
Good changes overall. These are the kinds of minor but regular balance passes I’d like to see in between major class and mechanic shakeups. Keep it up!
Nitpick: Corax updates were pretty underwhelming. It desperately needs fitting to equip the light missile launchers every aspect of its kit suggests should be there. Consider a follow up pass!
I’m sorry but just exactly what is the reason behind turning the Rifter into a long range kiting slow moving armor tank frigate? The Slasher is a short range tackle frigate and the Breacher is a long range missile frigate. The Rifter frigate should be a cross between those two frigates with a variety of fitting options, not pigeonholed into a specific single use spot.
The Rifter performs best when used as a fast combat frigate with AC’s and rocket launcher, not some slow moving armor tank frigate using slow firing Arty’s. One of the easiest Rifter fit ups for new players to do is a passive shield tank that utilizes speed and applies quick DPS.
Adding a lowslot does not change the speed of the ship at all, the fits you are describing are still just as viable. Put in a damage mod or a nano to get even more speed/damage if those are things you value; not increasing either with a highslot
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On the main topic, I am disappointed about the Arbi redo, for already mentioned reasons and because it still leaves the arbi as a Triple weapon system ship. If dual weapon ships are bad, triple weapon ships should be regarded as even more so.
Maller becoming the missile ship would actually make sense, and separate out the three weapon systems to three different ships.
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Adding something “just because you can” won’t add anything significant to the game. The last “pirate” ships added (SoE) were fairly logical, but I don’t see what, say, Caldari-Minmatar could add. Duct tape+Hybrids?
i remember rhiload complaining the stabber didn’t have enough powergrid, stating “it has the powergrid of Ghana” and “you can’t power a Nintendo 64 let alone arties” and yet not even any changes to the powergrid, was rhiload exaggerating or could there have been a PG buff to the stabber? or did this already occur?
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