Dev blog: Triglavian Technology - Ships & Weapons

official
devblog

(Marcus Gideon) #182

Excuse me? I’m going to assume you meant one of the other naysayers. I was on your side, after all. =)


(dewk) #183

Sorry Marcus, accidently put your name ininstead of Dark Engraver. Problem when using a 9" touch screen.

He has this habit of insrantly bagging anyone disagrees with his view, yet manages to fail to back up what he says.

Many who have posted in this topic understand what the topic is aimed at, and post with some form of backup to what they have posted.

So sorry about insulting you be putting your name instead of his.


(dewk) #184

As i see there are three main types of posters.

The fanboy/whiteknight: see everything a developer releases for a game as 100% and there is no possible way its bugged or unbalanced, and will shoot anyone that disagrees down with nothing to back them up.

The I Want: the one that wants the endgame ship now, demands features that would turn a ship into an overpower killing machine, like the fanboy provides very little to back themselves up.

The true gamer: the one that wants a game to success, tends to look at things not throw rose coloured glasses or with a closed mind. They tend to back up what they say, and are happy to rethink what they have said if someone debates what they have said. They tend to tolarate the other two as they know you can’t please everyone.

There are other types, but these are the main three i see.

I’d like to think I’m the last type. But know there are some games and days where i may not be.


(Lugburz) #186

you like going off topic dont you?


(dewk) #187

For someone that’s only been active from 2017 you seem very sure of yourself!

Yet you fail to back anything you’ve post here up with any proof or references.

Ever bothered to look at what you have said and wonder if you’re ever wrong?
I’m saying this as someone that remembers what it was like when each of the four player faction only had 5 ships each (to the point we used to use battleships as the biggest miners in the game by mounting mining lasers on all the turret slots, the days before the T2 release), also one of the most important skills to train with “Learning” (as it decreased the skill training time of all other skills) and we could use mines to guard jumppoints (and yes I still have 10x ASP mines and 10x Cobra mines from back then)

For someone that posts as many response as you do a day, I wonder if you have a life outside of EVE?


(dewk) #188

OK lets get back on topic, (for those that are interested)

Going though ALL T1 battleships this is the following details of the Leshak and where it sits based on pure ship specs and no modules or skills in affect;

Shield; average shield of all Battleships is 7,348.125HP (highest of 11,200HP and lowest of 6,000HP) the Leshak sits well below the average, and is equal in shield HP as the best Battlecruiser with 3,500HP

Armour; average armour of all Battleships is 7,788.23HP (highest of 9,950HP and lowest of 5,500HP) the Leshak sits just above the highest by 600HP, with 10,500HP

Hull; average hull of all Battleships is 7,656.47HP (highest of 9,900hp and lowest of 6,000HP) the Leshak sits just above the average with 8,000HP

Resistances for the Leshak mirrors all other Battleships, though it should be noted that some armour resistances are in the low battleship levels.

Shield Regeneration rate is equal to the average Battleship rates with double the Shield HP of the Leshak.

CPU: the average for all Battleships is 676.76 tf, the Leshak is below this with 625.00 tf
Power Grid: average for all battleships is 14,929.41MW (with a few with 21,000MW), the Leshak is above average with 17,000MW (see notes below)

CAP Regeneration rate is equal top with the Apoc.
CAP Capacity is above the average
Inertia Mod is above average
Ship Signature is the 4th best
Scan Res is average
Target Range is average
Sensor Strength is 3rd highest equal
Speed is average
Drone capacity is the 4th best
Drone bandwidth is above average with 100mb/s

Slots;
Low; highest equal to the Megathron
Medium; Lowest equal
High; Lowest equal to the Scorpion

EHP: the average is 42,410 ehp (highest is the Nestor with 56,800 ehp) the Leshak comes in below the average with 40,400 ehp (personally I think this is due to the shield HP being 2,500HP below the lowest Battleships shield HP, this could be address with ether a resistance boost to the armour or a slight HP increase to armour, ether would tie in with lore)

Notes:
Yes the Leshak has an above average power grid capacity, but when you look at the power requirements of the Disintegrator (which the t2 is almost equal to the requirments to mount 5x Tachyon Beam Laser II), and as an added negative requires almost enough CPU to mount 5x 425mm Railgun II.
So the default powergrid is 400MW short of just mounting the Supratidal Entropic Disintegrator II, the CPU capacity is half eaten up by that same weapon, and that’s before anything else is added to the ship.

So some say you have to sacifice some modules to get what you want, true. But you can still fit an Apoc with 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II and have Powergrid available and more than 1/4 of your CPU left, while with Gleam Lens get an 391.4 DPS and an alpha strike of 3,522HP, an Leshak with an Supratidal Entropic Disnegrator II and Occult Plasma max’s out the Powergrid (yes with maxed skills you have a bit of room to play around with, roughly 6,000MW for everything else) and gets and 452.8DPS and max damage of 2,086HP.

The point is the Precusor ships are limited to one turret weapon, yes it can mount and energy, projectile or hybrid weapon, and if it does mount an non-precusor weapon it’s majorly setback, so it’s limited to the disintegrator.

Problem is these weapons are smack bang in the middle of all other turrets for range capacity, that have no falloff, so anything beyond optimal range is out of range.
Sure these weapons can spin up some really good damage, but this requires a constant target lock and tracking, if ether fail, it stops and requires spin up again. to fix this a player need to install tracking enhancers, tracking computers, sensor boosters and signal amplifiers, and these require med-slots and low-slots.
But as most know with four mid-slots you’re exremely limited as to what you can mount, and with a below average EHP and every low shield HP, those low-slots are a key requirement for armour protection. Sure you can sacrifice RIG slots to boost armour, as it is in most cases you’ve already sacificed a low-slot for a powergrid modules to help counter the massive lose to the turret.

So I personally would love to hear what others think might be a good solution, as it’s clear the Precusor ships are 75% average compared to other ships of their class, 5% above with armour HP and weapon damage, and 20% below the average of ships their class.


(Fluffy Moe) #189

I still think this is all completely screwed up. I took a particular interest in the precursor ships over the last few days as I got a whole bunch of blueprints for them and their mods, I already got what I needed to get to T2 blueprint wise to build my own stuff. Putting rest on contracts in Jita.

To that effect, I have been watching the markets very closely, literally in person log into the game at least 2-3 times a day in Jita and check prices. What strikes me is the cost disparity. For example Vedmaks have been goin up and down from around 315-380ish mil.

Regular T1 cruisers sell for 9-20 mil. Faction Cruisers and most T2s sell usually between 200-300 mil, some can go little less or a little more depending on market swings. If Vedmaks are T1 cruisers, then they should sell likewise. granted, there is the “newness novelty phase” so account 2,3 maybe up to 5 times the cost. But 10-20 mil vs almost 400 ? L O L W T F !?!?!

So either these are not T1 ships, or somebody at CCP majorly, and I do mean in a gigantic fashion screwed the pooch royally if they are indeed regular T1s.

So either they had zero consideration for game economy when designing these, which needs to be corrected.
Or they are not supposed to be as dinky and weak as a regular T1, which needs to be corrected.
Or somethign else entirely, but either way, these things need to be corrected.


(dewk) #190

the reason for the prices is market driven. if for example you had the capital you could in theory bring the prices down on a item to a point where you’d crash the market for said item. and this has happened in the past.

so it’s possible to push prices up, and I do know of some that have gone out and purchased cheaper prices items, only to resale them at a higher price matching the prices they have sold their own manufactured items.

ideally you compare prices on Eve-marketdata.com or evemarketer.com to see what prices are all over eve.

the other thing is to compare the cost of purchase vs cost of manufacture, in some cases it’s cheaper longer term to get and BPO/C and having the ability to make your own item as you need it, and the only other cost after BPO/C purchase is factory costs and time for material collecting.

but the sales side isn’t controlled by CCP, it’s player controlled and driven.


(Fluffy Moe) #191

Lets agree to disagree. While some of what you said is true, especially that I myself have a trading toon, here this is not the case.

If the ships were a bit better, there would be a much higher demand for them, in addition if the material drop rates in abysmal sites were improved, their manufacture, buying / selling and destruction would have a much smoother and steady chain. In addition, you can regulate all of these by simply increasing / decreasing of droprates of teh said materials within the abysmal sites, make a couple small incrimental adjustments every couple weeks until you have that stream average out to exactly and precisely where you want it to be. And then if a bad change happens, you have the control to help it to correct itself.

Unfortunately, between lackluster ships, and the royally fkd up way to get the materials for them, its what we ended up with. And that fkd up way is absolutely 100% on CCP. Not on players.


(dewk) #192

Nevyn Auscent you make a good point, but the Nestor another T1 BS has the highest EHP of all BS by default without any skill, module or implant mod. , it also has one of the best RR and CE bonuses (we’ve all seen the Amour Tanked Drifter Site versions running 2x RR and 2x Cap Emission) making them almost indestructible (easily getting 114k EHP) in a fleet. These solo use it’s drone bonuses to let their drones be the weapons.

As for the turret, well as noted in an above post, the T2 large Disnegrator requires nearly the same powergrid requirements as five, yes five Tachyon Beam Laser II’s (yet the Leshak is 4k MW less than the Apoc in default powergrid capacity) and CPU requires as five 425mm Railgun II’s and these were the largest requirements of all the T2 turret weapons until the Disnegrators came on the scene.

So to be honest the Precusor ships aren’t as good at CCP make them out to be, their basicly average ships, with a small benefit if the turret can get up to it’s 150% damage bonus (limited due to optimal only range capacity, ammo change, tracking and targeting all effect the possibility of getting to max damage).

Their no tanks when compared to other tanks when you see that they have an EHP below the average of their class, and shield HP a complete class lower than their class(massively below the lowest of their class), and armour resistance in some damage types in the low set of their class, which seems odd when they are meant to be armour tanks. The massive armour HP is great, but it only helps with the EHP a little, but not enough with all the above EHP related issues.

As Fluffy Moe points out they aren’t worth the current market prices, the low availability of materials is a concern.


(Nevyn Auscent) #193

Nestor is not a t1.
Most battleships fit 7 or 8 turrets


(dewk) #194

Sorry to disagree, even though the Nestor is a faction BS, it’s listed as an T1, not faction or T2.

You just need to check it’s specs to find that. There are a total of 17 T1 battleships, from the 4 main player factions and NPC factions.

Not many mount 8 turrets, though most have 7 high slots with a mix of turret and launcher slots.
Averages are 7 high, 5 med and 6 low slots (if I remember correctly, not got the information in front of me from the above post)
lowest are 5 high, 4med and 5 low
Highest are 8 high, 6med and 8 low.


(Nevyn Auscent) #195

Nestor is a pirate BS, it requires two faction skills to use, and has that shiny faction icon on it. Oh and it’s even listed under Pirate in the market. No idea where you get this delusion it’s a T1 Battleship, but it’s very clearly not.

Just to satisfy you.
T1 Amarr, 8,8 5(Drone ship which still has 5)
T1 Caldari 6, 8, 4 (ECM Ship)
T1 Gal 6 (Drone ship), 6, 7
T1 Min, 8, 6, 6/6 (Dual weapon split)

So if we ignore the Drone/ECM ships who aren’t actually combat BS.
We have 4 with 8 turrets, 1 with 7, 2 with 6 and a split weapons BS with 6/6.
So yeah, Mean is above 7 turrets for those BS which actually use guns/missiles as their primary weapon. Mode is 8. Median is 7.5 (as it lands in-between two numbers since even number of ships).
So yeah, 7 or 8 turrets is the normal, the only T1 ship with 5 is a Drone/Neut BS.


(dewk) #196

True the Nestor requires Amarr and Gal BS skills which should make it a faction ship, but as I noted it’s listed as an T1 (possible CCP data entry error, who knows!)

As for turrets yes true, but we’re talking about not just armament, but complete setup, thus you need to include into the data logi and drone battleships, to get your averages, going with only weapon battleships, doesn’t take into account the logi features of the Precursor ships. Plus some drone ships are just as deadly as pure weapon battleship if not more so with good skills. Classic example of this would be the Amarr Arma, 125mb/s bandwidth, 325m3 of drone capacity, 5 turret/launcher capacity with 7 high slots, add to the it’s neut/necro bonuses, plus a good lowslot count for armour tanking, you have a kick-ass battleship.

So that the reason I included all listed T1 battleships in my data, and yes it included the Nestor and a couple of other T1 faction battleships. I guess we could redo the data without those ships, or add in all the faction listed battleships. It’d change the data a little in where the average lays, but not by a huge amount. Probably take me a hour to got through it all. Be interesting to see the out come.


(Nevyn Auscent) #197

Point is that the Prescursor ships are turret ships.
Not Drone ships. If you count drone ships then you also need to be counting heavy drones as turret equivalents to get an accurate picture of weapon slots.
And there are only 12 T1 BS’s. It’s very clear, I don’t know why you are getting so confused over how many T1 ships exist. Go look at the market categories, they split them all in perfectly clear ways.
Now ok, the Precursor ships are in a weird slot, and I agree CCP need to make it clearer if they are meant to be T1 or Faction or T2 or Pirate in strength. And make their cost proportional to that also.


(dewk) #198

Well actually the Precursor ships are a combination of turret and neut ships, very similar to the Amarr Dragoon and Arma, only difference is instead of lvl bonus to neuts they get turret bonus, and instead of role bonus to drones, they get remote armour bonus. Remember the Precursor ships have a high drone capacity and bandwidth.

I know you’re focusing on the combat side of these ships, and if I was I’d agree with you 100%, but I’m looking at the complete package, and all the possible configurations of these and other ships in their classes. The battleships make things easier to look at as they have larger numbers to compare.

As to faction ships or not, hardcall. Most faction ship rely on 2 or more ship skills to give lvl bonuses. The Precursor ships rely on only the Precursor ship skill, the Hydra and Tiamet are true faction ships as they use precursor ship skills and a role specific ship skill.

So this raises the question of is Precursor a totally new player faction like Amarr, Cal., Gal. and Min.?
If that is so then that would explain the T1 design of these ships in skill requirements, though most would agree they tend to be on the low side of the averages of ships of the same size class.


(elitatwo) #199

Yes and there will be only 50 of each, just like there were only 50 of each

  • Raven State Issue
  • Apocalypse Imperial Issue
  • Megathron Fedrate Issue
  • tempest tribal issue
  • Adrestia
  • Guardian Vexor
  • chreomas
  • Vangel
  • Chameleon
  • Cambion
  • Etana
  • Rabisu
  • Fiend
  • Imp
  • Whiplash

and all the other tournament ships you will never see. They have nothing to do with the regular ships in EVE.

No they are not. They have an activation cost bonus for neuts, smartbombs and remote armor reps.
The maximum repair power of them is equal to that of an Oneiros without the logi drones, same as the Nestor (you can find those values in the pvp forums, I only needed several weeks to make the list of remote repair values with extensive testing and nobody appreciates the work I did).

No it does not. If you have read the dev blog, you would know that the Triglavians are a lost tribe of the Amarr.


(dewk) #200

Nevyn Auscent raised an interesting point. So it got me thinking, if we were to take PVP fit Leshak and copy it’s modules over to another battleship what differences would there be?

Now weapons would need to be changed to match the ships bonuses, and some modules may be missed to limited slot counts, and some empty slots due to extra slots. But it does make for an interesting read, with the Armageddon being the closest in power and cpu, as well as in EHP, though the Megathron has better armour resistances (85%/80%/83%/72%), so not sure why it’s EHP is listed as low as it is.

[Leshak, PVP Leshak]

Power Diagnostic System II
Corpum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Syndicate Damage Control
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II

100MN Afterburner II
Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler
Shadow Serpentis Heavy Stasis Grappler
Sentient Sensor Booster

True Sansha Large EMP Smartbomb
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Supratidal Entropic Disintegrator II, Occult L

Large Anti-Kinetic Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Ancillary Current Router II

‘Augmented’ Wasp x4

ECCM Script x1
Tetryon Exotic Plasma L x500
Occult L x500

EHP; 149k
Power; 25.9k MW (95.2% used)
CPU; 781.2 tf (99.07% used)
Weapon DPS; 639.1HP
Weapon DPS at 150%; 1,597.75HP
Drone DPS; 261HP (yes more than 2 Geckos)
Est Cost; 4.51bil ISK

[Megathron, *Megathron fit]

Power Diagnostic System II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Corpum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Syndicate Damage Control
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

100MN Afterburner II
Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler
Shadow Serpentis Heavy Stasis Grappler
Sentient Sensor Booster, ECCM Script

Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer
True Sansha Large EMP Smartbomb
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Large Anti-Kinetic Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Ancillary Current Router II

‘Augmented’ Ogre x3

Void L x320
ECCM Script x1

EHP; 124k
Power; 23.62k MW (60.48% used)
CPU; 750 tf (86.87% used)
Weapon DPS; 594HP turrets only
Weapon Alpha Strike; 2054HP turrets only
Drone DPS; 209HP (limited to 3 heavy drones due to 75mb/s bandwidth)
Est Cost; 3.58bil ISK

[Apocalypse, *Simulated Apocalypse]

Power Diagnostic System II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Corpum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Syndicate Damage Control
Heat Sink II

100MN Afterburner II
Sentient Sensor Booster
Shadow Serpentis Heavy Stasis Grappler
Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
True Sansha Large EMP Smartbomb
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer

Large Anti-Kinetic Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Ancillary Current Router II

‘Augmented’ Praetor x3

ECCM Script x1
Gleam L x4

EHP; 124.8k
Power; 32.7k MW (61.63% used)
CPU; 675 tf (94.3% used)
Weapon DPS; 240.5HP turrets only
Weapon Alpha Strike; 1,937HP turrets only
Drone DPS; 108.1HP (limited to 2 heavy drones due to 50mb/s bandwidth)
Est Cost; 3.5bil ISK

[Armageddon, *Simulated Armageddon]

Power Diagnostic System II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Syndicate Damage Control
Corpum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Heat Sink II

True Sansha Warp Scrambler
Shadow Serpentis Heavy Stasis Grappler
100MN Afterburner II
Sentient Sensor Booster

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
True Sansha Large EMP Smartbomb
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer

Large Anti-Kinetic Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Ancillary Current Router II

‘Augmented’ Praetor x5

ECCM Script x1
Gleam L x4

EHP; 135.8k
Power; 21k MW (95.86% used)
CPU; 687.5 tf (93.02% used)
Weapon DPS; 240.5HP turrets only
Weapon Alpha Strike; 1,937HP turrets only
Drone DPS; 405.5HP (one of the largest drone control capacity of BS)
Est Cost; 2.8bil ISK

I’d love to see what the difference would have been if these three other ships could mount a single Supratidal Entropic Disintegrator II.

But price point wise 4.51 bil ISK and an Armageddon with near identical fit comes in at 1/2 the price, with more drone options and weapon options you have to wonder…


(Nevyn Auscent) #201

In what world is 14k less EHP (10% approx) & 260 less DPS (like 25%) ‘near identical’
Like seriously, your own maths says that the Leshak is in a fine place. And it ramps up to more than triple the DPS of any of those fits listed there.


(dewk) #202

though some have sited that the Nestor is a faction ship and thus shouldn’t be compared to the Leshak. That been said many have compared the two, with the Nestor coming out better.

yes the Leshak gets a nice RR range bonus and good cap activation reductions for RR, Smartbombs and Neut/Necro modules.

it turret lvl bonuses are on par with most other ships of their class that have turret bonuses.

question for you, the Concord ships are listed as special edition ships, but readily available on the markets and contracts, weren’t these at one stage like the other ships you mention? after all the Pacifier and Hydra are listed as an Special Edition Covert Ops ships, and the Enforrcer and Tiamat as Special Edition Recon ships. This is where I was getting confused, as the Pacifier and Enforcer you can get anytime you want if you have the ISK, so why wouldn’t those BPC’s being handed out as event prizes end up the same in the end?
we know there’s 50 BPC of each, but do we know how many runs there are on each?

Ok, we agree they are a faction group, and more or less similar to Navy Faction ships, but just classed under Triglavian ships.