Dev blog: Triglavian Technology - Ships & Weapons

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(elitatwo) #203

Those are gifts you get for that planetary research thing and they are not limited edition, hence the name special.
As long as pilot do the reasearch, the CONCORD ships make it to New Eden, tournament ships get CONCORDOKKEN and are gone forever.


(dewk) #204

Well as we’re starting to see, I should of used the Navy Faction versions as the comparison ships. The only reason I used those ones were because they were the closest in most of the bases specs as the Leshak.

As I noted it’s purely about the fitting, and I did state that if we were capable of mounting the Disintegrator the information would be closer to the Leshak fit, but we can’t. To counter the 4.6x requirements I’ll change from 4 to 5 turrets, rounding-up.

So here’s the Navy faction versions.

[Apocalypse Navy Issue, *Simulated Apocalypse Navy Issue]

Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Corpum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Syndicate Damage Control
Power Diagnostic System II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

100MN Afterburner II
Sentient Sensor Booster
True Sansha Warp Scrambler
Shadow Serpentis Heavy Stasis Grappler

True Sansha Large EMP Smartbomb
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer

Large Anti-Kinetic Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Ancillary Current Router II

‘Augmented’ Praetor x3

ECCM Script x1
Gleam L x4

EHP; 158.7k
Power; 34.3k MW (68.57% used)
CPU; 725 tf (98.86% used)
Weapon DPS; 359.6HP turrets only
Weapon Alpha Strike; 2,632HP turrets only
Drone DPS; 162.2HP (limited to 3 heavy drones due to 75mb/s bandwidth)
Est Cost; 3.1bil ISK

[Armageddon Navy Issue, *Simulated Armageddon Navy Issue]
Power Diagnostic System II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Corpum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Syndicate Damage Control
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Shadow Serpentis Heavy Stasis Grappler
True Sansha Warp Scrambler
Sentient Sensor Booster
100MN Afterburner II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
True Sansha Large EMP Smartbomb
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer

Large Anti-Kinetic Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Processor Overclocking Unit I

‘Augmented’ Praetor x5

ECCM Script x1
Gleam L x5

EHP; 172.7k
Power; 23.7k MW (99.14% used)
CPU; 749.7 tf (96.27% used) (Had to replace the Large Ancillary Current Router II with and Large Processor Overclocking Unit I to get the fit to work with my skills)
Weapon DPS; 479.4HP turrets only
Weapon Alpha Strike; 2,632HP turrets only
Drone DPS; 405.5HP (one of the largest drone control capacity of BS)
Est Cost; 3.9bil ISK

As you can see these NAvy Faction ships are closer to the Leshak and mirror the same lvl to what we should be comparing, I have to say comparing to the T1 standards was an mistake, and based on the pricing it’s a bit closer.

So almost identical modules, only different is weapons (5 turrets instead of the four, and the lose of a Corpus C-Type Heavy Energy Neutralizer), drones and only one fit requiring a RIG change from Powergrid to CPU.

I think we now know what the Leshak is meant to be, an Navy Faction ship. And I’d have guess that the Vedmak and Damavik if we looked into them more would be the same, Navy Faction Cruiser and Frigate.

Thanks Nevyn Auscent for getting me to look into that a bit more than I had. :slight_smile:


(Jeremiah Saken) #205

noted where? Market - under the faction BS tab. On the other hand triglavian hulls are precursor tech, not T1, faction or T2. First of the many as CCP stated.


(DrysonBennington) #206

Just imagine the raw power of Triglavian Carrier that would rival the Reverent.


(dewk) #207

oh don’t temp us with that thought! :wink:

Next we’d be dreaming of Dreadnoughts or similar.

Though the thought of a series drone boats and pure logi ships could be a possibility, there’s already other topics talking about precursor sentry drones, so who knows.


(dewk) #208

Its noted in the compare window theres a column that lists a item/ship as T1, Faction or T2.

The Nestor, Leshak and a number of other what are listed in the market under pirate or navy faction, are all listed in that column as T1.


(Jeremiah Saken) #209

It’s a bug not feature. Comparing tool just don’t use proper meta group. Question is where do triglavian hulls fall into?


(dewk) #210

Judging from what we’ve gotten so far, and Comparison to standard T1 and just the other day Naval Faction ships, it appears the Precursor ships in the same region as the Naval Faction ships.

This is based on the skill requirements and the basic specs are very close. The Pirate Faction ships mainly require two ship skills to use, while the Naval and the Precursor only require one ship skill to use.

Though I’m interested in how they compare with the navy ships, I’ve compared the leshak with the standard ships (posted is a day or two ago), and it was slightly above the average of the T1 battleships (though in saying that some areas it was the lowest, and only in armour hp was it the highest, elsewhere it tied with other ships). So I might do a similar comparison with the naval faction ships. There is an post above that has compared two Amarr Naval Faction ships with near identical pvp fit(other than weapon and an odd module change to match the weapon, or to count CPU limitations ) to an leshak pvp fit. Interestingly both those ships ended up with better EHP, other than that very similar outcomes (some things a little lower, others higher).

If I have the time today I’ll do the comparison, might even through in as an extra the pirate faction ships just so others can see for themselves where the leshak (and by comparison the other two precursor ships would sit).


(Sylvia Kildare) #211

Mmmm, rigs and faction radsinks would indeed be very welcome for the Triglavian ships, yes… and implants, too. 6% DAMAGE IMPLANT in the CONCORD LP store, PLZ!

People are comparing them only because they’re BSes that can dish out damage but also have armor RR bonuses.

Speaking of which, we really need a shield version of the Nestor/Leshak. Come on, CCP. Either add some RR range/rep amount/cap use reduction bonuses to the Rattlesnake (egad, that’d either make an already OP ship even more OP or they’d have to take away the missile bonuses or remove part of the drone bonus)… or make a new shield combat/RR faction line of ships, please. (Thukker frig/cruiser/BS!)

I’ve said before I thought the only thing the Leshak needed was a 5th midslot, but I do kinda wish it had more CPU as well. I’m putting a faction gun, 2 t2 large RR, 2 t2 large remote cap, meta MWD, faction large cap battery, 2 t2 tracking computers, 3 t2 radsinks, 1 t2 sigamp, 1 t2 DC, and then I’d LIKE to put 3 armor-specific tank mods on (either 2 EANM IIs and 1 active t2 hardener or 1 EANM II and 2 active t2 hardeners)… but there’s just not the CPU.

So I use two EANMs (or swap 1 or both to active hardeners) and a t2 CPR for a bit more cap (not really needed with the cap chaining I do, tho, with 3 Leshaks)… and the CPU JUST FITS… for a particularly damaging mission, I take out the 3rd radsink and put that 3rd armor tank mod on.

Now, ofc I could faction up a bit and have more fitting room, and I will at some point. But no option to faction the radsinks just yet… at least there’s the faction gun (but once I train into t2… ugh, even less fitting room!)… anywho, faction TCs and prop mod (might borrow some from my Paladins/Kronoses/Vargurs as I don’t feel like spending more cashola right now) will probably be first.

I wouldn’t be opposed to be a bit more EHP padding in the armor area, also. But I doubt they’re going to buff its resists, it’s a t1 ship. Best you can hope for, best any of us can hope for, is a slight increase to the HP buffer.

Oh, and it’d be nice if it had a range bonus to remote cap as well. All the remote armor range in the world does me no good with my 3 Leshaks when they have to stay within 10 km to cap each other to run those armor reps. :wink:


(dewk) #212

The reason as i understand it that the SOE and Precusor are armour tanks is its easier to armour tank against EWAR Drifters and Sleepers. Yes you can do it with shield tanks, but no where as successfully.

I believe CCP in lore explains the reason also.(im sure someone knows where this is and could quote it for us)

As for the T1 ship thing, it become clear the precusor ships aren’t t1 standard ships, they sit in the area between T1 and Faction, basically the same as the Naval Faction ship, they don’t have the same skill requirements as a true Factional ship, but are better than the average T1 standard ship, like the Naval version ships.

As for the extra med-slot, personally think it would be ideal to counter the short falls with the turret, so ether for enhanced tracking/optimal range, or for ECM modules to bring a target down into the turrets limitations. Ideally like the idea of these modules getting a powergrid/cpu requirement reduction, this would be a way to increase available mounting resources. Even a 50% reduction on these modules could possibly free up enough cpu and powergrid to mount good fit, though not enough to allow to a fullout T2 fit without requiring at least one powergrid module or cpu module depending on the fit you go with.

Possibly going the following way for the leshak;
5 high slots(no change)
5 med slots(increase by one)
8 low slots(no change)
No change to power grid, cpu, cap, etc…
Slight increase to armour resistance to account for the extremely low shield HP, only enough to bring its EHP to the average of its class
Lvl bonuses and role benefits no change, but add a 50% reduction to fitting requirements of Tracking Computers and ECM modules.

This may not seem much, but could be enough to make a slight differance.

I think that could help it fit into the CCP lore role better. I might try the above in pyrf and try a modified fit requires for the above meantioned modules. Will try to figure out what the resistance increases migth be alway. Unless someone bets me to it.

Be interested what others think.


(Sylvia Kildare) #213

I don’t want a shield version of the Nestor/Leshak for sleepers/drifters, I want it for Sansha incursions.

Armor incursion fleets have the choice of Oneiros, Guardian, OR Nestor… Shield fleets have Scimitar, Basilisk… well… you COULD bring an Orca, I guess.

No bonused BS logi like the Nestor. tho. Hence the need. Instead we get a 2nd armor logi, the Leshak, before there’s even a 1st shield one…


(Fluffy Moe) #214

This, very much needs to happen not just for Leshak but all across the board for Demavik and Vedmak as well.

Nah. they need slightly more PG, also across the board. Or, alternatively, instead of adding PG to the ship, reduce the PG reqs of the precursor turrets, they eat up a ton.


(dewk) #215

Let me do up a mookup of it first to see where thingss need to be adjusted. Should be doing in 12 hours time.


(dewk) #216

OK so I’ve redone the whole T1 comparison with the Leshak, and based on the general agreement compared it with the Naval Faction ships, and got some interesting results. There is still an issue with the low EHP, but I’ll cover that later on in the post.

Please remember following details of the Leshak and all Naval Faction ships_(please note I’ll use the default name of ships, so remember these are the Naval versions I’m ref. to)_ and where it sits based on pure ship specs and no modules or skills in affect;

Shield; average shield of all Battleships is 8,9111HP (highest of 11,500HP with the Scorpion and lowest of 8,000HP with the Apoc) the Leshak sits well below the average, and is equal in shield HP as the best Battlecruiser with 3,500HP

Armour; average armour of all Battleships is 9,922HP (highest of 11,500HP with the Armageddon and lowest of 8,000HP with Raven) the Leshak sits just above the average by @600HP, with 10,500HP

Hull; average hull of all Battleships is 9,555HP (highest of 11,000hp with the Dominix and lowest of 8,000HP with the Leshak )

Resistances for the Leshak mirrors all other Battleships, though it should be noted that some armour resistances are in the low battleship levels.
Kin = low side with 25% (high side is 35%)
Exp = high side with 20% (low side is 10%)
Ther = low side with 35% (high side is 45%)
EM = low side with 50% (high side is 60%)

Shield Regeneration rate is equal to the average Battleship rates with double the Shield HP of the Leshak.

CPU: the average for all Battleships is 650.0 tf, the Leshak is below this with 625.00 tf
Power Grid: average for all battleships is 15,252 MW (with high 22,000MW with the Apoc and low 11,000 with the Scorp/Domin), the Leshak is above average with 17,000MW (see notes below)

CAP Regeneration: average 1,094 sec (worse 1,150sec, best 1,000) Leshak rate is equal with the Apoc. at 1,000sec
CAP Capacity: average 5,977.7 (high 7,000 with the Apoc, low 5,500 with Domi) Leshak is above the average with 6,600
Inertia Mod Leshak has the highest, so turns slower than all other Navy Factions Battleships.
Ship Signature is average
Scan Res is average
Target Range is average
Sensor Strength is 3rd highest equal
Speed is just below average
Drone capacity is the 4th best
Drone bandwidth is average with 100mb/s

Slots;
Low; highest equal four others with 8 slots (average 7)
Medium; Lowest equal with 4 others with 4 slots (average 5)
High; Lowest with 5 slots, next lowest is the Dominix with 6 slots (average 7)

EHP: the average is 53,575 ehp (high 57,300 ehp with the Scorp/Domi, lowest 49,800 ehp with the Typhoon) the Leshak comes well below the average with 40,400 ehp (personally I think this is due to the shield HP being 2,500HP below the lowest Battleships shield HP, this could be address with ether a resistance boost to the armour or a slight HP increase to armour, ether would tie in with lore)

Notes:
EHP: to address the low EHP compared to all other Battleships T1 and Naval Faction the Leshak would require a boost to it’s defensive stats.
I’ve found just the basic addition of the following brought it to just below the Typhoon in EHP.
Suggested EHP changes:
increase armour HP by 2,500HP

Now the following it a mixed option, as doesn’t change the default EHP stats, but does help with in fitting requirements (CPU and PowerGrid) and adds a little boost to EHP when modules fitted;
Armour modules (not rigs), require 25% less fitting requirements
Armour resistance increases by 4% per level on ship skill
Armour Plates have a reduced mass by 10%

Now I did look at the possibility of increasing the Armour resistances, and it would work to get the basic stats EHP up, but reading a few things and knowing how tanking resistances work, by increasing the base resistances would work against the Precusor ship design. As increasing the resistances would mean the first armour module would have lesser of an effect. So ideally we don’t want to change these, as they’ll reduce the armour tanking effectiveness, I think CCP did the right things with the armour resistances. The main problem I see is they forgot to counter that massive shield HP drop with an armour HP increase.

I think other than those suggestions is maybe looking at a 5-10% reduction on fitting requirements for Electronics and Sensor Upgrades, Electronic Warfare and Turret upgrade modules, nothing too huge, but when combined helps to provide the CPU and Powergrid short fall when mounting the Disinegrator and Smartbomb.

As for the 5th med-slot, it would be a nice addition, but if the above were done then we should be able to reduce the number of reactor and cpu modules and rigs required to a nicer number.

As a closing note ISK value.

The Average sales price of all Naval Battleships (excluding the Leshak in the numbers) is 524mil (highest being 620mil average price for the Raven and 381.mil being the lowest aveerage for the Tempest) , the current available for the Leshak is 842mil, and for a new Faction(naval faction equivalent )_ it’s not too bad, maybe a fraction high, but not to majorly when you think of it as an Navy ship, if you think of it as an standard T1 then yip way over priced, but it isn’t from what I’ve found so far.

anyhow here you go as I promised an updated comparison wit more equivalent ships, and I wouldn’t be surprised to find the Vedmak and Damavik are in the same boat and possibly require the same sort of EHP fix.


Dev Blog: October Balance Pass!
(dewk) #217

might look at the cruiser and frigate to confirm my thoughts of them having a similar issue as the Leshak


(Fluffy Moe) #218

That is a very nice write up and comparison. Thanks for that. I don’t have Precursor Battleship or its weapons at 5 + decent spec, and won’t for a long time, so unless I do and fly around a bit in it, I can’t really give feedback on the actual Battleship performance. My only thing comes from messing around with in game fitting tool and PYFA where I input all level 5 skill character, gave it some implants etc.

The Vedmak on the other hand, definetly needs more PG. 100%. Basically you make a fairly standard T2 fit, and it is too difficult to fit a good tank + a good secondary T2 upper, like a T2 medium EMP smartbomb, and you can forget about putting anything else in tehre to take advantage of that rep or neut bonus.

On the Vedmak you end up sacrificing either rig slot or low slot for PG, and it needs them both pretty badly for other stuff. The disintegrators are fairly cap intensive weapons, so you also need a cap battery + booster or rigs to be able to get enough stability.

Very Basic T2 DPS fit:
Reactive Armor Hardener
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II

Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery
Stasis Webifier II
Tracking Computer II
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Entropic Disintegrator II
Medium EMP Smartbomb II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II
Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump II

Occult M x500
Optimal Range Script x1

.

And very basic Tank fit:

Reactive Armor Hardener
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
400mm Steel Plates II
Entropic Radiation Sink II

Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery
Stasis Webifier II
Tracking Computer II
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Entropic Disintegrator II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II
Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump II

Occult M x500
Optimal Range Script x1

On both of them, there is not enough PG left to fit a T2 medium smartbomb, or a T2 medium neut. And like I said above, you can forget about fitting anything else into those high slots. I had to use a PG rig, which the Vedmak needs very badly due to its sub-par tank and high cap use. I got inventive with them before and came up with some barely manageble stuff, but it wasn’t cheap. IMHO the ship should be able to operate basic T2 fits with fullfilling at least 1 of its secondary roles. The only thing it can do is fit a single remote T2 armor rep. But what about the smartbomb and neut ? Shouldn’t it be able to fit more then 1 as well ? it has free upper utility slots that ought to be utilized. Otherwise there is no point to them.

Also, in both of these I had to use rig slots to plug explosive and kinetic. They ended up way too low, when I plugged them with rigs, now they’re too high, this is why I don’t like this resist profile, a single hole is easy to plug with a single module, on the 2nd lowest you eitehr cover it with an omni mod and it becomes manageble, or stick another resist specific mod in there. Here however it just ends up being all screwed up.

Both fits are cap unstable, though one of them is a lot better then the other, even with that large cap battery, and forget about fitting a T2 battery, no PG again. You could go cap booster but thats not a very good solution when your base stability drops to around 1-1.5 minutes, you’ll be out of that booster faster then you can blink and die during reloads.

I don’t know if Leshak has same issues.

Another solution would be to leave everything exactly as it is stat and resist wise, leave PG, CPU, resits, everything exactly as is, but give it an extra low slot. This would enable fitting flexibility.

I just think it ought to have a way better way to fit and fulfill its secondary as well as primary functions with regular all T2 mods and without leaving any unused high utility slots. Honestly, now that I think about it, they should have just removed 1 upper and give it one more lower, that would solve everything.


(isevisa isevisa) #219

when you corrected the error EVELauncher?.. so they can enter the game we are mere mortals who has windows 7 x32? with respect from Georgia.


(dewk) #220

Nice fits, but until you get armour rigging to at least level 3 each armour rig module will only slow you down. At your lvls(this is guessing as no idea oof your skills), youd be better mounting other rigs to help with powergrid, cpu or other things that have a lesser negative effect on your fit.

So if speed is a concern, avoid using armour rigs and armour plates as both, without good skills slow you down, 10% for each rig and cant remember what the 400mm plates effect is atm. Youd be better of removing the plate, one nano membrane, and mounting engergized kinetic and explosive modules, and then if youre happy with a small speed drop an armour repair rig to boost your armour hp repair amount or cycle time, and mount something else in the other free rig slot.

Your use of the reactive armour module is good, and does a great job, and its only effected by the damage control module, though im unsure why youve stacking other modules, when you have limited slots, like running 3x entropic sinks, the benefit of the third is questionable when youre talking about poor speed and armour issues. How much do you know about stacking modules?

Remember you can speed tank also, RR logi or go ECM fit. The thing is to look at all the possible combinations. Though that being said the Vedmak does have similar issues, but being a cruiser its less noticable, but they are the same as the leshak, so most of the Leshak suggested mod would address the issues, but the armour HP increase would have to be recalulated for the Vedmak.


(dewk) #221

As for cap stable, look at your fit and dont activate modules that arent used at the same time as your main ones.

In most cases when you do this your ship is stable, or for at least a few minutes, enough to get a kill or two.

Like youre very unlikely to be running a smartbomb with an mwd/ab, and most likely not running mdw/ab in normal combat. Think of how you use modules and simulate the fit for each type of combat, only activiting modules youd be using. This work you can see where/when you gain cap and loose cap.

Also why no drones? These ships have an above average drone capacity and bandwidth, allowing for each dps or ECM. Is it an skill issue?


(dewk) #222

Wrong topic i think