Dev blog: Triglavian Technology - Ships & Weapons

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(Fluffy Moe) #223

I should have made it a bit more clear. All level 5 skills, except disintegrator specialization is at 4. For the purpose of the fit discussion lets just keep it simple and go with all 5s, no implants, no boosters. I’m very much aware of the diminishing returns on module stacking and exactly what it does, but like I said, 1 is a DPS, the other a tanky fit. On DPS fits you normally fit 3 damage mods, sometimes 4 despite the diminishing returns. These are just base T2 templates.

The fit is ok. Armor rigging gives -10% penalty and reduces it by 1% per skill level so at level 5 skill you still have a 5% instead of the 10% movement penalty. Rigging skill does not eliminate it, just reduces it.

The problem I have with these ships is that when you use a double omni like I did above, 1x reactive and 1x energized adaptive, even taking into account reactive hardener adjusting itself, I still end up with 2 holes, instead of 1 hole like I do in other navy ships. It just simply and plainly is not enough, hence the rigs.

As for cap stability, I do understand perfectly. In the DPS scenario, you get literally right on top of the target and just unload, even the smartbomb. When I mean cap stability I compare things to all the other ships I have and fly. By default, I end up with about 5-6 minutes of cap with everything running. Here this is not the case, cap lasts around 1 and a half min. Without the battery or cap boosters, under 1 minute. So its pretty bad. On average 3.5 times worse then everything else in comparable fits.

Speed tanking is OK, however, these ships are by default designed to be kinda “point-blank-range”, due to optimally being used with the Occult ammo. Tight orbits reduce speed. They also do need a web because as orbits stretch, they elongate when you do it in the game, targets dip in and out of the range of the disintegrator weapon, and when they do so your spooled up DPS takes a gigantic dive because the weapon looses the spooled up bonus.

On the tank fit you’d be more likely to use Mystic ammo, so the web may be not needed,

I didn’t put drones in the fit because I’m concentrating on base functionality. While these do have bay and bandwidth obviously without any hull drone bonusses drones are an afterthought. they’re just kinda there.

My biggest concern is that these things are unable to fulfill their secondary roles due to low PG and a double resist hole. Like I said, without use of a PG rig or mod, you can not fit a T2 smartbomb or neut on it, both of which the ship is bonused for and has slots for. You can fit 1 remote rep, but what about the rest of the slots ?

Go ahead and play with it. Plug the resist holes and try to fit more then 1 T2 medium sized secondary module, which the ship is bonused for, in the highs. See what happens.


(dewk) #224

Can you post the other ships fit you ref to along with the ved fit you fell it the closest you have made to it.

As to skills, i tend to use character over the ideal all 5 skills, as the all 5 includes spec skills too which can throw things when you try a fit in game.

As per stacking knowledge, i was refering to do you understand what happens when you do it, the fitting tools automatic do it, but fail to show the effects of each module in a stack and which modules are included.

Stacking pens are the main thing to understand, when you mount a third module in a stack it only adds @50% benefit. Not sure if youre read this, but its worth reading again. https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Stacking_penalties

Reason i bring it up is it isnt always a benefit mounting multiple of the same type of module.

Now back to your armour holes, one solution is the fix the holes in low slots, get your resistances as close as possible before mounting nano membrane, the reactive will add an unstacking pen 15% to them, if you add an nano membrane then itll only be 86% effective on those two damage resists and 100% on the other two. There is another option, and that is to use a EM ward to fill the shield hole and replace the reactive with damage control(reactive and dc both have stack pens with each other in armour resist), by mounting the em ward and DC you end up with the shields taking % of the damage, and the DC still adds @15% to armour resist(just static unlike reactive), you also gain hull resist, and its a passive module so not cap needs.

I know many might say go one or the other for tanking, but when you think about a fixing the EM hole in shields you instantly gain extra time before your armour starts taking damage, its not a requirement to use a em ward, this only helps to get a better em resist, as the DC by itself will give @15% resist to the EM hole, plus any EM shield skill lvls you have. Then take into account the DC is still adding resist to all the other shield, armour and hull resistances with no stacking pen.

Something to think about


(Annir Janau) #225

Earlier in the post it mentioned TD as an effective anti-disitegrator tool. I deduced this as well, since the Leshak has a tracking of 5 (some HAW dreads have higher than that.)
Took on a Leshak in a Curse w 3 TD’s and 4 neuts. Got into a tight orbit w AB no webs. It roasted me.
So, please someone explain how it even tracked me. Skills are at least lvl 4 in all.


(dewk) #226

Depends. A TD should work, but if you have range disruption script loaded you want to be outside the turret optimal range, if tracking disruption is loaded yes be in close, but be warned these ships can mount smartbombs.

But to answer your question everything has a countermeasure. For the tracking disruptors, its tracking enhancers(low slot), tracking computer(med slot) , TC with specfic script, skills, ship bonuses (yes some ships have lvl bonuses to tracking and/or optimal range) and turret version.
Any of those will have an effect on how effective a TD is.

But as we have no idea of your skills, or target ship players skills, what modules and scripts were used, or turret version and ammo used, its hard to give an exact answer. But the above could give a possible reason as to how they might have done it.

Same can said about sensor disruption, where sensor boosters with the correct scripts can counter targeting range reduction, or targeting time, and sensor boosters do a lesser, but similar job. But you can’t forget the player effect, a good player with the right skills and lvls is a dangerous target to engage.

So its a case of thing of all the possibilities, and always go into a fight knowing you’ll loose your ship, that way you fight a good fight and might end up winning. If you going thinking you’ll win, you more likely to loose as you’ll do silly things to protect yourself and thus leave yourself open to attack.


(Ildrara) #227

Just make sure you spot weld the nuts and bolts so it won’t get loose.


(Dread Saboteur) #228

It looks to me like they left their identification as bare T1 with the intent of highlighting how powerful triglavians as a whole faction can be.
So for a bunch of T1 ships I am very happy with their stats


(Annir Janau) #229

Yes, I understand all that, not a total newb. Everything was optimal for me: tracking scripts, not webbed, close orbit w ab, at least 4 or 5 skills in all. He was using a SED II. I wish I would’ve checked my ang vel, but I missed it.
The guy who killed me hasnt lost a leshak so hard to guess what else he had. I did ask him what his tracking was, and he replied ‘5’. Even with TC’s, metastasis and whatever, a 5 tracking isnt going to track a close orbit, non-webbed, ab cruiser w 3 T2 scripted TD’s.
So something isnt right here. The spec is wrong or something else is happening. I dont mind losing, but I simply ask to know how. CCP?


(dewk) #230

Sadly these aren’t truly T1 ships, they actually Navy Faction ships, like the Nestor is listed in specs as a T1, but is a Pirate Faction ship.

Which when compared with other Navy Faction ships these ships a average in specs and if not a bit below average. Have a read of the last leshak comparison above to see what I mean.


(dewk) #231

Well the possibly is he was running a TC with tracking script, along with low slot weapon ungrades. I’d also guess he might of done a similar setup as I run, I can use the T2 turret, but use the Faction version as it has better spec, Sure I can’t use the T2 ammo, but if it can maintain target hits you get more damage, added to that T2 or Faction Tracking Computer with tracking script and and low slot weapon upgrade modules plus lvl5 Motion Prediction(+25%to turret tracking), makes it hard for an enemy to disrupt the turret tracking (it’s the same for all other ships the better your weapon upgrades and track the harder it is for an enemy to avoid or stop you hitting them).

As I see it the TD is effective if you have maxed skills and the best modules in a one on one, and know yor targets limitations. But that comes at a cost in another area.

I know that my precursor fits all have a strong tracking capacity and just as strong targeting capacity, as I know people will try to get the turret to reset it’s cycle, by trying TD’ing me. I even have modules to stop target from getting out of turret range, even though turret range is 50km+ already with my fit.

There are methods in these topic on possible ways to stop the turret damage cycle, the best is range effects, just like another ship, if you can keep out of enemies optimal weapon range you reduce the damage you take, with precursor ships in this case you kill that damage. There are three main ways to do it as everyone knows, but the downside of this is it puts you in most cases in the same situation.

So in your case it was just bad luck, you had the right idea, but possibly faced the wrong guy with a tactic he was prepared for, you might have had a better chance using the optional range disruption script and stayed just out of his guns range and keep reseting his turret cycles while you hammered him with your weapons.

Anyhow thanks what you posted, as it shows that sometimes the best thought out tactic can still be countered. And allows others to think of other possible tactics might work, but most are already in play against other ships, and might only need minor adjustments or even none.

Though it should be noted any intelligent precursor pilot will avoid using the current T2 ammo again fast movers or TD’ing players, as the -25% tracking pen would give them a massive disadvantage, the standard T1 close range ammo is only a few DPS lower, but maintains the standard tracking speeds.


(Annir Janau) #232

thanks Dewk for the re. None of that is any new info, simply: ‘things can be countered w mods’.

My point is that even w full tracking mods there’s no way he can track me in that situation. He even stated it was 5 total, but lets say he’s got full tracking buffs, thats what, a 7? Still nowhere near enough for a non-webbed ab cruiser.
It’s just mathematically impossible; damage should always be 0. It’s like saying, ‘ooops, 2+2 didn’t equal 4 this time, guess he knew a trick’.
SO that means somethings broken, there is a hidden mechanism, and/or the stats given are wrong, which is a CCP issue.


(Nevyn Auscent) #233

You can still damage a target without full tracking. its just reduced damage.


(elitatwo) #234

That is not true. You can fit 3x remote reps or 2x remote reps and a cap x-fer.


(Marcus Gideon) #235

Depending how close you are to tracking them. If their Transversal is too much more than your Tracking, you won’t hit for any damage. Time and time again you’ll just see 0 damage scroll by.


(dewk) #236

This is true, hence glancing damage, smashing, penetrating, extra, damage descriptions.
Smashing and penetrating damage is a full hit, penetrating has gone through shield/armour resistance.


(dewk) #237

When i get home today i’ll post about the precusor turret tracking. Hopefully it might give you thr answer you’re looking for. :slight_smile:


(Arthur Aihaken) #238

The slot reasignment on the Demavik doesn’t really improve the usefullness of the ship. But hey, better late than never, right CCP? (we only told you this six months ago)


(dewk) #239

?

what slot reassignment?

still 3/2/4/3 in game, same as the release version


(Ildrara) #240

Read the Dev blog.


(dewk) #241

Ok turret tracking for Precursor weapons;

Damavik;
No ship modification to tracking. Only damage and optimal range bonuses.
All Light Entropic Disintegrator have 410 Tracking, and all standard ammo doesn’t effect Tracking. T2 ammo have a -25% to tracking.

Vedmak;
Vedmak has a +5% tracking speed bonus to turret per level of Cruiser skill (5% to 25% bonus). plus bonus to damage.
All Heavy Entropic Disintegrator have 42 Tracking, and all standard ammo doesn’t effect Tracking. T2 ammo have a -25% to tracking.

Leshak;
No ship modification to tracking. Only to ROF and Damage.
All Supratidal Entropic Disintegrator have 5.45 Tracking, and all standard ammo doesn’t effect Tracking. T2 ammo have a -25% to tracking.

Weapon upgrade and Tracking modules:

Entropic Radiation Sinks have no effect on tracking. Only to damage and ROF
Tracking Enhancers add 7% to 9.5% for T1-T2 versions, Officer versions go up to 20%. Only other benefits are to range.
Tracking Computers without scripts add 10% to 15% for T1-T2 versions, Officer versions go up to 21%. Only other benefits are to range.
Tracking Computers with Tracking Speed Script gain an 100% bonus to Tracking Computers base tracking speed bonus, and -100% to all range base bonuses it had.
Character Skill Motion Prediction each level in skill increases tracking speed by 5% (maximum of +25%)

So an Leshak without any modules and just player skill level of five would have a base tracking speed of 6.8125.
But add any tracking module and that speed will increase.
e.g.
T1 setup with one of each tracking module and player skill lvl5 would have a tracking speed of 8.747
T2 version of the above 20.73
And if the Leshak pilot is silly and uses T2 ammo then they only lost 25% of that, T1 = 6.56 T2= 15.548

By Default only a few T2 Hybrid Blasters and few Dual Auto-cannons bet the Precursor turrets in tracking speed, 95% of the rest are below the 5.45 tracking speed of the Supratidal Entropic Disintegrator.

So I’m starting to think you may have under estimated the tracking abilities of these turrets.

The only other thing that could make it worse for you is having a larger signature radius, as that makes you an easier target to hit no matter your speed. Remember MWD’s increase your ships target size by 500%, that makes a cruiser almost 2x that of an Battleship or an Frigate 2x that of a cruiser when MWD is active, making it a hell of a lot easier to hit, sure the speed will help make it hard to hit you, but not to the level you think.

So even with a the bare minimum lvls a Leshak might miss every now and then, but remember what it’s secondary bonus is!
5% damage bonus per lvl of battleship, so with lvl4 Precursor Battleship and Large Precursor Weapon, lvl5 Rapid Firing, lvl4 Surgical Strike and using Tetryon Exotic Plasma L, you’d be looking at a base starting damage of 1165HP of Thermal and 515HP of Explosive damage, and with all skills and no tracking modules I have a 7.02 tracking speed and in just over 2 minutes would be a full damage of 2912.5HP of Thermal and 1287.5HP of Explosive damage per hit.

So even if I get one “smashing”, “wreaking” or other named hit, I’ll do between 150% to 300% damage. “Misses” will be 0 damage, “glancing” and other near miss named hits will be below 100% damage.

So if for example I get one “smashing” hit to you within the first few seconds of combat you’d be looking at anywhere from 2912.5HP of Thermal and 1287.5HP of Explosive damage to 4660.0HP of Thermal and 2060.0HP of Explosive damage. Now think about if that’s managed to spin up-to max power…

Edit Added:

Hit Descriptions and random damage mod %:

Grazes 50-62.5%
Glances off 62.5-75%
Hits 75-100%
Penetrates 100-125%
Smashes 125-149%
Wrecks 300%

I think the thing most didn’t realize is the Precursor turrets are right up there with the best fast tracking turrets, and have great damage potential, but that comes at the cost of NO FALL-OFF RANGE capacity. And this is the downfall for all Precursor ships, once an enemy is out of optimal range they are stuffed, they have limited shield protection having the equal of the next tier down ship for shield HP (Leshak is equal to most cruisers, and the Vedmak to Frigates and won’t touch the Damavik…).
So they have to rely on their armour and what drones they carry to counter long range enemy. As even with good skill and using Meson ammo you can only get to @60km weapon range without attacking tracking computers, enhancers and Optimal Range Scripts which can pull the range out to 80km+, but doing so means if an enemy decides to rush in an Precursor pilot will have to decide to keep the Meson ammo in and maintain the max damage out put, or switch to an close range ammo and restart the whole power up cycle again.

These are things to think about from both sides of the coin, as an Precursor pilot and an Precursor attacker. Depending on what option both or ether go for will decide who has the upperhand.

Hope that helps @Annir_Janau


(dewk) #242

which one?

Sorry don’t see what you’re ref’ing too.