Divinity Social and Insensitivity

[Arrendis]

@Remilia_Malitia

They are very public figures, not sure how you don’t know them too.

Zorya Triglav, Detached Executive Troika for Sublimation of Poshlost Flow
Kreshnik Svarog, Special Operational Troika for Extirpation of Corrupted Narodnya

I know of them. I don’t know them. I’ve never personally interacted with them. I don’t know Malateu Shakor or Empress Kittenz I, either. For all I know, there’s a dozen Zorya Triglavs or Kreshnik Svarogs, all with identical infomorphs, each with a standard-issue, programmed brainslug and they’re completely interchangeable for purposes of making public proclamations. So no, I don’t know them. And unless you’re claiming you’ve sat down for a chat with either one, neither do you. You just know of them.

@Ignuceque_Arnolles

but it’s honestly unlikely to be extremely common.

Which, you know, is one again not what I said, but g’wan, keep trying to claim I said things I didn’t.

@Ignuceque_Arnolles

This assumes that the other portions of said Troika are doing that which is pretty much all assumption, to an extent it defeats the purpose of what a Troika even is.

A) No, it simply assumes they can override.
B) Once again: the other two parts of the Troika would need to be directly hooked into the central nervous system. If they’re hooked into the nervous system, they’re in your mind, because your mind is just a product of the central nervous system.

@Ignuceque_Arnolles

I’m sure a case could be made about why the other parts of a Troika might want to increase the strain on their human portion, perhaps because they want to influence a vote or get them to say something in particular, but I think it’s a leap to assume that’s commonplace.

I’d say it’s pretty inevitable, to some degree. Just having conflicting central control centers hooked into the same nervous system means there’s going to be mixed signals, and as a result, more stress.

@Ignuceque_Arnolles

This all also, assumes of course, that whatever is straining the human body also isn’t altering the other two portions of the Troika as well

Pretty sure the brain-slug, being a mutaplasmid, has a housing. Unless Trig engineers are completely incompetent, that housing has the equivalent of circuit breakers to protect the stuff inside from feedback outside. And the purely-digital infomorph probably has even more redundant safeguards in whatever system it’s inhabiting (can’t be the wetware, after all, that’d be directly taking over the brain!).

@Ignuceque_Arnolles

Regarding the Convocation of Triglav: That looks more like an executive order from an overall representative body to allow resources to be entered into the Cladeflow rather then a thing that occurs on the regular, it doesn’t even appear to be forcing the Clades to do anything in particular so much as it’s removing obstructions to their ability to participate. Hell, in the text itself it’s shown that the reason the Militant and Technical clades are engaging with each other is because the leadership in the Convocation of Triglav have all consented to that action.

Right. But it’s also the only example we have of alterations to any part of Trig operations being made. And it was made unilaterally, across the board. Without counter-examples of changes only occuring within a Clade, that’s the evidence we’ve got. Just that.

[Remilia_Malitia]

@Arrendis

For all I know, there’s a dozen Zorya Triglavs or Kreshnik Svarogs, all with identical infomorphs, each with a standard-issue, programmed brainslug and they’re completely interchangeable for purposes of making public proclamations.

An excellent theory, based, once more on absolutely nothing. You know, for someone so commonly demanding evidence for claims made, you seem woefully unprepared to provide any of your own.

[Arrendis]

Except, you know, I’m not saying there are. I’m not making a claim. I’m doing exactly the opposite of making a claim. I’m saying we don’t know there aren’t. Do you know there aren’t? It’s really hard to present evidence of ‘I don’t know’, y’know? Cuz the very lack of evidence is the basis for the ‘I don’t know’.

So, do you know?

[Remilia_Malitia]

Know what? That there aren’t multiple copies of them running around? No as much as I don’t know Genolution isn’t running a secret concealed station in Jove-space populated entirely by copies of myself, but this is all would be extremely divergent from anything observed thus far, so why even entertain such thoughts unless there is even a sliver of evidence pointing towards that? What is your point in even bringing all of this up?

[Arrendis]

My point is that you’re making assertions as to their unique identities without evidence that in fact, they’re not mass-produced or something.

We see buttloads of ‘Zorya’ triglavians in fleets. So, we’ve got an indication of multiples. Now, that could be a role designation rather than a specific indication of them being ‘the’ Zorya. But at the same time, it might not be. We don’t know. So, y’know, assertive claims one way or the other can’t be made.

[Remilia_Malitia]

Yes. Because that’s what humans typically are? Humans are not mass produced? Any assertions that a human is actually a mass produced entity are quite extraordinary and need some backing???

What are you even trying to say? You are one step away from starting to accuse people of being reptilian shapeshifters here.

Also the classification isn’t Zorya, it’s Zorya’s, as in forces operating directly under, or chosen by Zorya.

[Ignuceque_Arnolles]

I didn’t say you thought they were extremely common, but at the same time you’re also talking like this is enough of a regular occurrence to completely dehumanize Troika as some kind of other. If by and large, some of them might experience significant personality alterations but the majority function as they should, that being a council looking to decide what’s best from their respective decisions, then that’s not really enough for me to justify any amount of hatred towards the process. It’s a different way of doing things, and one that may indeed come with the consequences of just naturally increasing stress to an extent and the potential for abuse by any entities that have a consistent two to one vote, but I also see the distinct advantages in consistently having alternate perspectives and almost literally tripling your mental processing power when all voices act in accord.

Also i’m almost certain that the Troika in question wouldn’t want to establish a relationship where the human and Navaka components want to destroy that housing, or the Multiplasmid and Human try to ■■■■ around with the wetware in question. Maybe you’re right and they couldn’t consume anything that would harm the other two, not without killing themselves anyway, but there are ways to engineer things against them. I think that given their shared body it’s likely all parties involved in a Troika would want to establish a positive working relationship.

Finally: That’s not what unilaterally means. The Convocation of Triglav is a representative body of all three Clades who all pitched in and mutually consented to the action, the communique even pointed out they all did this of their own volition. If anything though the rarity of something like this indicates to me that it may not even be possible to make widespread changes like this without at least a majority vote.

Barring that, you get the Navka Overminds. Svarog utterly hates Rogue Drones, Peruns in the middle on them, and Veles continues to talk and cooperate with them openly with no widespread action undertaken because Perun choosing not to side with either one resulted in them being consent locked.

[Arrendis]

@Remilia_Malitia

You are one step away from starting to accuse people of being reptilian shapeshifters here.

Are you denying being a reptilian shapeshifter? Because that seems like something a reptilian shapeshifter would do.

@Remilia_Malitia

Yes. Because that’s what humans typically are? Humans are not mass produced?

We are. We’re basically factory-built from reconstituted dead flesh on synthetic bones, all but injection molded to look like someone who’s dead. We’re 100% artificial, generic, standard-issue lumps of meat. We might as well be fast food burgers.

But more’s the point, we have evidence that aspects of the trigs are manufactured. Infomorphs, for example, aren’t born. Mutaplasmid brain slugs aren’t born. They’re manufactured. So there’s a certain precedent to question whether or not the combined package is unique. At the very least, it can’t be taken for granted that they are.

@Ignuceque_Arnolles

I didn’t say you thought they were extremely common, but at the same time you’re also talking like this is enough of a regular occurrence to completely dehumanize Troika as some kind of other.

I haven’t said the inconsistency of their response is at all one of the things that makes them inhuman. I’ve said it’s something that meant civilian populations couldn’t reliably evacuate. Don’t go confusing different lines of argument on different issues here.

@Ignuceque_Arnolles

Also i’m almost certain that the Troika in question wouldn’t want to establish a relationship where the human and Navaka components want to destroy that housing, or the Multiplasmid and Human try to ■■■■ around with the wetware in question.

Destroy? No. Control? Definitely. Everything tries to control as much of its environment as it can. Most things can’t control much, but they seek out dens, build nests, etc etc.

@Ignuceque_Arnolles

Finally: That’s not what unilaterally means.

Yep. In fact, ‘done by one acting agency without the consent of others’ is exactly what it means. The leadership made the move, and that was that. But I think we’re going to continue to disagree on just how much discussion their was among the Clades, and how much disconnect there is between the Clade representatives on the Council, and the Clades themselves. You might be surprised at just how much that kind of job isolates its members from their home groups.

@Ignuceque_Arnolles

Barring that, you get the Navka Overminds. Svarog utterly hates Rogue Drones, Peruns in the middle on them, and Veles continues to talk and cooperate with them openly with no widespread action undertaken because Perun choosing not to side with either one resulted in them being consent locked.

Right. No change because the issue of proving isn’t settled. Again, we just haven’t seen a long enough stretch of time to have a clear idea of what happens when one idea, tool, or method becomes ‘proven’.

[Synthetic_Cultist]

I have been Under the Impression that the Triglavian Bioadaptation Process involves extensive Genetic, Cybernetic, and Physical modification of the subject. Is this not True ?

[Remilia_Malitia]

@Arrendis

We are. We’re basically factory-built from reconstituted dead flesh on synthetic bones, all but injection molded to look like someone who’s dead.

Yes, and that is not the norm. We make up a hilariously tiny minority, to say that just because cloning tech exists (Not that we have any evidence that Triglavians use cloning. I don’t deny that it’s extremely likely that they do but, still, unobserved.) then everyone we ever meet might just be one of countless copies is borderline schizophrenic.

@Arrendis

Mutaplasmid brain slugs aren’t born. They’re manufactured.

Why are you taking for granted the nature of Koschoi? We have extremely little data on them. I find it more likely that they are a second kind of infomorph, one derived from dead Narodnya, as opposed to the synthetic Navka, though that’s just my own interpretation based on Zorya’s voices, don’t have any actual concrete data on that end.

@Arrendis

Destroy? No. Control? Definitely.

This is counterproductive to the Collective’s concept of proving. Just as the three clades don’t seek to control one another, so do the parts of a troika strive for equal representation. The goal is advancement through engineered conflict, not domination of any one part over any other.

@Arrendis

Right. No change because the issue of proving isn’t settled. Again, we just haven’t seen a long enough stretch of time to have a clear idea of what happens when one idea, tool, or method becomes ‘proven’.

That particular issue has been resolved for a while now. Conforming automata entered sobornost with the Collective under the oversight of Detached Navka. It’s detailed in their DAV datastreams.

[Remilia_Malitia]

@Synthetic_Cultist

I have been Under the Impression that the Triglavian Bioadaptation Process involves extensive Genetic, Cybernetic, and Physical modification of the subject. Is this not True ?

We have no evidence of that. All observed samples of bioadaptive technology operate on the bacterial level. DNA should be intact. Cybernetics are not involved in the bioadaptation process, though I would presume they are related to the assembly of a troika, to house the other infomorphs.

Some physical modification is probable, the extent of which depends on the extremes the subject needs to survive. Might be something as simple as an altered metabolism or increased lung efficiency.

[Synthetic_Cultist]

@Remilia_Malitia

Might be something as simple as an altered metabolism or increased lung efficiency.

Altering the Metabolism or Lung Efficiency, requires Genetic alteration, when the Alteration is greater than that achievable through a Change in Diet or Exercise, does it not ?

[Remilia_Malitia]

Hardly so, think of Mutaplasmids more like self-maintaining and deploying augmentations. They just make use of extensively engineered bacterial colonies instead of purely mechanical nanomachines.

[Arrendis]

@Remilia_Malitia

Yes, and that is not the norm. We make up a hilariously tiny minority, to say that just because cloning tech exists (Not that we have any evidence that Triglavians use cloning. I don’t deny that it’s extremely likely that they do but, still, unobserved.) then everyone we ever meet might just be one of countless copies is borderline schizophrenic.

Fortunately, I’m not saying that everyone we ever meet might just be one of countless copies. Though of course, with baseliner military crews getting ‘backup’ clones, that possibility is, in fact, growing in likelihood (though of course, still vanishingly small).

@Remilia_Malitia

Why are you taking for granted the nature of Koschoi?

Because the evidence we do have, as presented by ARC somewhere around here, points in that direction. Best info we’ve got.

@Remilia_Malitia

This is counterproductive to the Collective’s concept of proving.

Not at all. If anything, the idea that the three entities in the troika are always striving with one another seems more to fit into the concept. The three Clades don’t seek to control one another? That sounds like something of an assumption, doesn’t it? What’s the point of Cladistic Proving? To find the best ways to do things, which then get adopted by the whole? So, if Veles’s methods are proven superior, everyone adopts them… and that’s control. It may not be direct administrative dominance, but it’s still a form of control.

@Remilia_Malitia

That particular issue has been resolved for a while now. Conforming automata entered sobornost with the Collective under the oversight of Detached Navka. It’s detailed in their DAV datastreams.

That’s not a settlement, that’s a condition of the proving. That’s how the question of ‘can we use these’ is getting tested.

[Remilia_Malitia]

@Arrendis

Because the evidence we do have, as presented by ARC somewhere around here, points in that direction. Best info we’ve got.

Would you mind linking that? Would love to read how they came to that conclusion.

@Arrendis

Not at all. If anything, the idea that the three entities in the troika are always striving with one another seems more to fit into the concept. The three Clades don’t seek to control one another? That sounds like something of an assumption, doesn’t it? What’s the point of Cladistic Proving? To find the best ways to do things, which then get adopted by the whole? So, if Veles’s methods are proven superior, everyone adopts them… and that’s control. It may not be direct administrative dominance, but it’s still a form of control.

Not at all the process of proving. The process isn’t “Option A is superior to Option B, Option A will be chosen” it’s “We have Option A and Option B. We will now formulate Option C incorporating the strengths of both its predecessors and choose that.” The goal is metaxy, not supremacy.

@Arrendis

That’s not a settlement, that’s a condition of the proving. That’s how the question of ‘can we use these’ is getting tested.

I am not sure what you mean by settlement then. The consent lock was broken, the discourse element processed and the Collective’s noemata were adjusted accordingly. What would you consider a settlement if not that?

[Valerie_Valate]

Now I want to know your opinion on the material I presented here: The Compleat and Accuratte Guide to Triglavian Culture

[Arrendis]

@Remilia_Malitia

Would you mind linking that? Would love to read how they came to that conclusion.

I’ll be completely honest here: finding it would take me quite a lot of time and it’s late, so I’m going to play for time here on my way to rack out for the night, and hope @Uriel_Paradisi_Anteovnuecci swoops in with his encyclopaedic knowledge of these things¹ to say ‘oh, here it is!’ and swoop on out again. If that doesn’t happen, I’ll go rooting through the threads of the last 30 months in a sort of shambling lurch until I dig it up for you².

@Remilia_Malitia

The process isn’t “Option A is superior to Option B, Option A will be chosen” it’s “We have Option A and Option B. We will now formulate Option C incorporating the strengths of both its predecessors and choose that.” The goal is metaxy, not supremacy.

There is no synthesis of binary propositions. You cannot, for example, answer the question of ‘do we exterminate the rogue drones or not?’ with a middle ground. There is no middle ground. Either you exterminate them, or you don’t. If you kill some of them, that’s still not exterminating them, so it remains one of the two binary options, not a middle ground.

There’s a lot of issues like that, and even when there is synthesis to be achieved, being one of the parties contributing to it remains an exercise in control. Being the group not contributing is, after all, powerlessness.

@Remilia_Malitia

What would you consider a settlement if not that?

A final answer to the question. Right now, that question’s still open-ended, ie: not settled.

---

^{1. Which would be terrifyingly freakish if he wasn’t one of the people producing most of the actual research. Instead it’s just gratifying that he knows his own material well.}

^{2. And, you know, if it turns out I’m wrong and misremembering the research that’s been done, I’m sure he’ll point that out, too, only, you know, with actual citations of ‘no, look, here. This is what it actually said, stupid’. Only, you know, with less ‘stupid’ because I’m a jerk, he’s not.}

[Tanagura_Amoii]

@Valerie_Valate

Now I want to know your opinion on the material I presented here: The Compleat and Accuratte Guide to Triglavian Culture

A summary of external relations would be helpful. I recall the Triglavians took positions on several factions. Now that they are here in the middle of our cluster and not isolated in their own space, have those relations evolved?

[Remilia_Malitia]

@Arrendis

There is no synthesis of binary propositions. You cannot, for example, answer the question of ‘do we exterminate the rogue drones or not?’ with a middle ground. There is no middle ground.

That’s… not at all what synthesis means though? The point isn’t to choose the “middle ground” but to see the merits of both propositions and figure out the best way to implement an option that takes all of them into consideration. The outcome was neither “Exterminate all drones” nor “Let the drones join us unconditionally”. They realized that drones exhibit a wide array of both sentience profiles and autonomy. Those that are intelligent enough and free of hivelinking were brought into the collective on the condition that they acknowledge the detached Navka’s authority. The result was neither “KILL EVERY ONE OF THEM” nor “LET THEM ALL JOIN US”. Now you have the Navka Overminds, drones in sobornost with the Collective, and your standard drones whose modus operandi is more in line with mechanical eusocial insects, which they have classified as “vermin” .

@Tanagura_Amoii

A summary of external relations would be helpful. I recall the Triglavians took positions on several factions. Now that they are here in the middle of our cluster and not isolated in their own space, have those relations evolved?

I believe that Guide is just a joke, at least I hope so. If you want a more accurately compiled guide I would recommend this one.
As for the relations, they are still pretty much the same:
Drifters need to die.
Sansha’s Nation needs to die.
Drones must conform or die. (Read above for the current state of affairs in that regard.)
No comment at all on the empires.

[Tanagura_Amoii]

@Remilia_Malitia

As for the relations, they are still pretty much the same:
Drifters need to die.
Sansha’s Nation needs to die.
Drones must conform or die. (Read above for the current state of affairs in that regard.)
No comment at all on the empires.

“No comment” sounds like an improvement over “must die,” so it seems there is potential for common ground. The five armies can come together at a system suitably in the center of the triangle - a point the name of which I forget - and agree to deal with what everyone agrees must die before continuing with their own disputes.