And I keep explaining what it is missing… in that data and in the previous thread just like my own parameters.
Seriously…
You are posting in a specific dishonest way, you did that with the 20% comment.
You meant it as an insult. And I can point out if you are posting dishonestly, that you cannot acknowledge the travel time at all and come out with 100km as an example…
That is not what I said, you are using experience here not me. I merely said that those numbers do not take into account the travel time of the drones back to the ship, the travel time to get to zero on the roid with the orca, the travel time that comes from the drones orbiting large roids. The raw numbers do not include this, it is simple. I have experience of that, but is a fact that these have an impact and it is a fact that it is not catered for in the numbers you supplied.
I have detailed above and in the previous thread my parameters. If you are unable to understand it then it is your issue.
My experience with you is that you are trolling.
Here is your answer, it is hard to say, If it comes to all ore type T2 crystals then it is the Skiff at max skills, but do people train that for hisec? I would not…, if you think that is the case then more fool you…
Anyway, I am marking you down as a CODE troll and I will leave you to it.
No one here is dismissing that. I acknowledged it then, and im acknolwedging it now.
What you didnt acknowledge, was everything else. EHP. Ore hold size. Training Time. You refused to acknolwedge this, saying “Were only discussing mining yields”.
And you accuse me of being disingenuous?
Again, how so?
Yeah, i completely ignored and refused to acknowledge that into the discussion.
K.
Its not hard to say. Everyone here said it wasnt hard to say.
But for you, it seems really hard, because it would mean you would need to admit you were wrong.
I explained that by pointing out that Orca’s in 99.99% of the time that they are ganked are ganked whiel going through the pipe bottlenecks and that a slight increase in yield did not justify any change to the EHP.
Trying to say that I did not respond to that is disingenuous.
You did it above again.
You did.
Being disingenuous again, selective posting out of context.
I quoted the hard to say comment of someone who uses an Orca.
Within my parameters and what I am explained I am totally right. If you talk about getting into the two ships only then you are right which is the example you used. I can be disingenuous too if that is what it takes. Anyway that’s it the last hook. I have given up on you o7, you trolled me out of this thread, you won!
Yeah, that Github file is good and well informative. It shows the maximum possible values by default and under different fleet boosts. Maximum possible values means that all required skills are trained into V, the T2 Rigs and all required mining implants are used. In reality, it’s a very rare scenario. Even being under an Orca or Rorqual buff, I barely believe that there are many pilots around with full T2 mining rigs and implants installed, especially in 0.0. Actually, most real values will be smaller.
I mentioned that
Mining Drones for Exhumers are just an optional thing (not a big mining yield difference between T1 and T2 m-drones for them), while for Orca is a must to have both trained into V.
For a trivial Skiff vessel (with a mix of T1 and T2 modules boosted into mining), the difference into mining yield between good T1 drones and perfect T2 drones will be 2.3 m3/s max. We can use the Pyfa to check the digits in our way. Let’s do the math.
A perfect Skiff V, without fleet boosts and any implants, fully fitted into mining: x3 T2 Mining Laser Upgrades and x2 Medium Drone Mining Augmentor I rigs. It’s not a classical Skiff, but may it be.
MYpS = 2x10.9 + 5x1.37 = 21.8 + 6.85 = 28.65 m3/s. This is a value closer to the reality. But I’d normalise it to 25 m3/s (if drones are used). The T2’s 7.5 m3/s can be gained by using two T2 mining drone rigs (which isn’t cheap). So, here is a comparison between x2 T1 rigs (2x1.7M ISK) and x2 T2 rigs (2x30M ISK): delta = 7.5 - 6.85 = 0.65 m3/s (56.6M ISK = the price of 3.3 Procurers).
To demonstrate that 2.3 m3/s difference, we must create a new character in Pyfa with same skills, but with one exception - Mining Drone Operation IV and Mining Drone Specialization: None learned. The Strip Miner I in the fit is just for comparison to Modulated Strip Miner II. T2 mining drones are disabled and T1 mining drones have a lower yield value.
MYpS = 5x0.907 = 4.535 m3/s. The deviation between perfect T2 mining drones and none perfect T1 mining drones is DeltaT2T1 = 6.85 - 4.535 = 2.315 m3/s. Again, how many pilots have learned Mining Drone Specialization into V?
Same calculations can be performed for Orca. Orca’s DeltaT2T1 = 7.7 m3/s.
I mined ore with an Orca and the things aren’t how they appear to be. Mining drones are like Missiles or Rapid Missiles, which shows good values on paper only. In reality, you can’t hug the asteroids just to avoid bumping at bad moments and you can’t manage the drone mining amount over depleting asteroids like it’s possible to mitigate for lasers. So, the real mining amount value for a Skiff will be smaller than 6.85 m3/s, close to 5 m3/s (sometime smaller), and the deviation between perfect T2 drones and trivial T1 mining drones will be close to 1-1.5 m3/s.
IDK. With entire 25m3/s you have to spend weeks and weeks into ore belts to build a Raitaru or a Naglfar. I’m not impressed with Barges and Orca. Orca’s mining drones can be boosted by rigs, while the Barges and Exhumers can be boosted by rigs, implants and fleet Bursts of Industrial Command Ships. Barges and Exhumers have a potency to mine much more than an Orca in fleets. In my opinion, considering the new Moon mining model, the Moon mining in hi-sec, the inflation, available Capital ships and Citadels, both Orca and Exhumers should be boosted somehow and Exhumers should be able to mine more m3/s than Orca. We should spend a year (even more) to rebuild the big lost assets in space. Orca and Exhumers should afford SubCap ships, Capital ships, medium Citadels, while Rorqual - Supers, Titans and Keepstars.
Somebody mentioned that Rorquals mining power should be nerfed. I’m not sure that this is a good idea. This will turn a lot of 0.0 dwellers away from mining, which will lead to increased prices for ore and Moon ore on the market by leaving untouched the current ISK inflation. I like the Suitonia’s idea to nerf Rorquals - to reduce their defensive abilities. He mentioned in a thread that it requires a huge subcap flleet to destroy a Rorqual and it’s hard to gather together so many pilots on a trivial basis.
My main idea to fix the Orca’s mining yield per second is based not on ore yield of drones, but on reduced mining cycle of drones by Orca bonus only. The ship bonuses should reduce the mining cycle of drones (based on default 60s) by keeping their ore minig yield untouched. This will turn into more trips of drones between the vessel itself and asteroids, which will force interested miners to boost the drones respectively by reducing the overall Orca tank abilities. To increase the profit, players will replace the tanking rigs with Mining Drone Augmentor II rigs and a lot of mid slot Shield modules with Drone Navigation Computer II modules. A fix similar to previous example.
Or, by implementing special ORE Drones for Orca only - with increased ore yield and slower speed than T2 drones have.
I have no idea why it’s so projected to solo mining and hi-sec only. That was just my response to the general question: “Does it take more time to fly an Orca than it does a skiff?”. Hi-sec and solo minging have nothing linked to that. How expensive is to learn into Exhumer and Orca in different general cases.
Nope, nobody will train into perfect Arkonor, Bistot, Mercoxit T2 Crystals for hi-sec mining, but many will train into some Moon mining crystals, for available Moon ore in hi-sec. But, somebody can train those Crystals, with some intentions to mine in 0.0 or J-space soon by mining in hi-sec currently. It’s situational.
For a 0.0 miner multiboxer, it will be wise to train different mining ALTs into different Crystals btw.
About Rorquals I believe they are fine as they are now and agree with your comments on the issue if they are nerfed in terms of T2 production. I would also suggest since Ancillary Shield boosters were nerfed in terms of the fact that only one could be fit it improved things a bit in making them more vulnerable and I would continue to see how this develops.
It is not so much that the Goons can defend almost all their Rorquals that we need to keep an eye on, it is whether other alliances have enough time to defend theirs.
My Orca’s have 2x T2 Drone rigs and one T2 Bulkhead on them, I would hate to reduce the tank by much, but a T2 Drone Nav computer is something that I could slip in.
Thanks for all the work you have put into this, I appreciate it.
That was the OP deciding that.
But it was hisec in terms of the other thread. Like many of the CODE posters they post dishonestly because they like to win some sort of forum war.
I must admit I was at fault in that initial thread because I had done the analysis on my setup when I said the Orca role bonus could be increased to 120% from 100%, but had not detailed those parameters. I assumed incorrectly that I would get intelligent responses from people who actually mined in hisec. So I rectified it by pointing out the parameters, but of course they just go off on their repeat what they said mode ignoring anything you say.
You gave the right answer which is that it depends based on what the OP asked in this thread.
Very much so. So far I have not gone near any moon mining at all, as I said in the other thread I am not min/maxing.
Absolutely, I was talking about hisec though in the original thread.
Thanks for that, I really appreciate your posting here.
You assume much
I’ve mined my fair share of ore in my little procurer. My Machariel is 95% mined over a period of many months, and most of my other faction/pirate cruisers and frigs were also mined.
I’ve learned one thing during my time doing mining, it’s a ton quicker when you have friends with links and transports
Im all fine with this. But i think you kinda missed the point.
With all things relative, when were discussing this in terms of mining barges and orcas, and their yeilds, whether you go with 7.5m3/s or 5m3/s, where an unboosted covetor gets 27m3/s versus a 22m3/s in a skiff, and if you were trying to get the most out of your mining ship, that 5m3/s is definately something you would want, would you not?
And yes, the skiffs T2 rigs are expensive, but in this scenario, you have to keep into account that we are using T2 rigs for the orca as well.
We were discussing this as a pure comparison between mining barges and Orcas. Dracvlad suggested that he would like to buff the Orca to get it more in line with his skiff, in terms of yield. Obviously a boosted Skiff would get far, far more yield than an orca, even if the skiff doesnt use drones, so our discussion was necessarily a comparison of solo-mining vessels.
I dont think i ever said anything about it needing to be in hisec, but our past discussion was based off of someone asking for rorquals to be included into hisec. Which I think everyone was against.
This specific discussion is regarding a claim Dracvlad said, that Orcas take “significant training requirements to get into”, and when i pointed out that Skiffs are very significant, and in most cases of use, if were comparing a solo miner, more so than the orca. To which he called me as being disingenuous, and reiterated his claim for the orca as having taken “a lot longer to train then the mining barges and exhumers”.
There’s still a chance he’s right and this sample was very abnormal…
If the true chance a ganked orca was killed in a choke point or at a gate is indeed 99.99%, then there is a 0.0000000000000000000021% chance that only 4/10 randomly picked (no need that they be consecutive) orca ganks would be at gates.
I was talking about your acceptance on the fact that drones moving back and forth have an impact on yield, progress indeed…
As for the Orca’s 99.99% was actually a joke, and you lot are having a competition which might adjust the number, but picking ten random like you did reminds me when I took a random list of bumper scam help ganks by Robocop and checked to see if they were still playing and found 80% had left the game and the ganker crowd screamed foul.
I repeat what I said, the EHP is mainly a factor in terms of the pipes, go and do the last 100, nah make that the last 1,000 then we can talk based on what you lot said to me on the gank scam bumps.
Except that the thread was defined as HISEC as it’s title and I said nope, no Rorqual in hisec and it would be better to buff the Rorqual and of course I mentioned that the Orca should be the top end of hisec. So no mention of hisec at all is a fantasy that your brain just made up.
Not quite what I said, but when does the actual facts get in a way of CODE spinning.
This argument about time to fly an orca and mining-only is a little artificial.
I solo mine, using an orca on ore, a skiff & drone on ice, and a prospect (or procurer) on low sec moons. And I was flying an orca long before solo mining in either.
It is still my preferred hauler despite having a freighter alt. Arguing about orca as a mining-only ship, whether drone-boat solo or fleet-based command, completely ignores its versatility as a transport. A transport which you can fly, and fly well, long before you will have trained up to the point where this artificial argument of orca vs exhumer needs to take place.
But even after that, I was flying an orca as a miner long before training fleet command skills, simply because I dont need them. Time to train that part is irrelevant. So, other than on ice, the orca outstrips everything else when solo mining (for me) and is the best compromise also for me to haul without having to swap alts.
I use DST’s to haul stuff not an Orca. And my DST with high grade slaves and overheated is over 1m EHP. Better than an Orca.
Done and dusted.
PS Taking into account Crystals then the time to train up a Skiff is longer, but that was not what I was talking about in relation to the Hisec thread. So call that a victory by all means.
