That’s my point. They have no need to “do it to the Empire first”, if they want us all dead. Their actions so far say “we’ve had very specific objectives, and very specific targets” and it seems to me that the priority should be finding out what the hell those specific targets did to earn their ire and rectify the situation. Put some damn pressure on the Empire and such to get some answers instead of blindly firing into the mist and hoping you hit something.
And you know what? The Loki is sure as hell not necessary for anything I do as a capsuleer, and if giving up some spirits be damned spaceships is the price to pay to avoid an all out war with something capable of swatting titans like flies, I’ll bloody well take that deal. It’s a fantastic one, with damn near no downsides.
Learn from the Empire’s failure, damn it. When the map starts saying “Here there be monsters”, let them stay there.
Uh, Miz? Good luck telling that to the wormhole dwellers? And good luck distinguishing them from the rest of us as far as the Drifters are concerned?
If withdrawing from Sleeper space seemed like something we actually could make happen I think I’d be in favor, but … it doesn’t seem likely to happen.
Really? Their actions to me say, “We’re still getting stung all over, but our primary weapon is recharging and won’t reach firing readiness for another couple years, so we’re going to put out a couple spot fires, pick up some stray biomass, and otherwise wait.”
That sounds kind of… ridiculous, to be honest. Okay, I know you’re not the most combat minded of people, but when there’s flies around you don’t fire off a nuke when you have flyswatters. When there’s invaders, you don’t feed them some kills and pop a few of them every once in a while when you have a fleet capable of burning them out of the skies with ease. Should you show up at the Deck with a gun aimed at me, I will use my own rather than wait, build a titan and Doomsday the station off the map.
They have demonstrated their fleet capabilities. It is, so far, unmatched. Especially outside of nullsec and wormholes, where you can sacrifice some bubblers to keep them on grid for a while, should you wish to try winning by attrition. They can appear where they wish, in the numbers they wish.
I can’t imagine that these creatures are so stupid that they would not take advantage of this is warfare or extermination is the plan. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Oh don’t worry, I’ve already pointed out that we’re likely screwed in this regard. Unless we can convince CONCORD, who I’m pretty sure could remotely pop any egg hitting w-space if they desired, we’re unlikely to be able to corral capsuleers here. It is, nonetheless, what should be done.
You have a disturbing tendency to use acts or precedents of atrocity as justification for continued such.
Yes? You seem to be confused. Oh, I see, you think it’d be an atrocity if the Empire burned to the ground, perhaps? It’d be an act of mercy and relief, as the greatest threat to New Eden is extinguished.
You’re the one who compared us to insects, Miz. You don’t defeat a severe insect problem in detail. Against a hive of excitable, stinging insects, you definitely don’t just go wading in swatting at them, even if you’re way stronger.
Consider that the Drifters probably aren’t all that interested in New Eden from a resources standpoint; they’ve got plenty. Consider that if they disrupt the infrastructure supporting wormhole endeavors in Anoikis, it’ll be way easier for them to bring their territory back under their primary control with Arithmos patrols.
Consider that even if they could win with all of New Eden agreeing they’re a threat, they might neither need nor want to-- that it may be completely in their interests for the first concrete sign of danger you and I would both agree on, to also be the last.
Consider that the Hive systems are invariably shattered, full of smashed planets. If they have a doomsday capability on that scale-- the artificial generation of an event on the scale of Caroline’s Star-- it’s not pointed at or near their own feet. It’ll be pointed at ours. That means yours, and mine, both.
I’m increasingly of the mind that the Drifters have, at best, only partial control of the Nexus anomaly. Consider that when the Drifters appeared to transit Hives into known space for local production and dispatch of Seekers, the Nexus anomaly that was discovered near the facilities was a maelstrom of debris, and the Hives themselves were far more vulnerable than we’d ever seen.
Considering that each ‘Urchin’ was itself seemingly destroyed by the Nexus and continues to interact energetically with the anomaly, I can only assume that these are very much like our violent wormholes or spatial rifts, and that the Drifters fortunately haven’t made tremendous progress over the last perhaps two years.
At the same time, their AKE salvage operations are still underway. Given the proposed utility of AKE in spatial manipulation, it may be that a prodigious amount are needed for spatial manipulation on that scale.
While conceding that I’m not the most deeply involved in the theory, Ms. Priano, are we really sure that the “Urchins” were destroyed, as opposed to discharged or even deployed? The pattern of “wreckage” is consistent from nexus to nexus-- it’s always that “S” pattern-- and actually it doesn’t look very much like the pylons (or whatever we want to call them) are damaged so much as … well, obviously highly-energized.
Don’t take a power comparison too literally, Aria. We’re not insects. We’re not swarms. We’re unbelievably easy to completely end for an entity like the Drifters. Just burn a few specific planets and we’ll bloody regress into dark ages as the logistics of just keeping people fed falls apart. Double the number and we’ll be back to whatever happened to separate us into planet-bound primitives.
Their fleet is perfectly capable of ending New Eden’s civilization as we know it. It’d be staggeringly stupid to not use the perfectly useful tools they have, if that was their objective.
The basic premise remains: We need more INFORMATION. Not more antagonizing.
I’m not sure we’re quite that fragile, Miz. Definitely the Caldari aren’t; they’ve been preparing for something like that basically since the State was founded. Burn a few key planets and mostly what you’ll probably have is many trillions of very angry surviving Caldari who aren’t going to forget or forgive any time in the next thousand generations.
Anyway, I agree we need more information, but, the main way we have of getting it is going poking in where we’re obviously not wanted.
Except … not unwanted very much, seemingly? They haven’t been trying very hard to stop us, to the point where I’m getting really worried that we’re playing into their hands in some way I can’t work out yet. Maybe we’re helping them somehow? The image of ARC and SERAPH ships carrying material from Hive to Hive does make me think of bees carrying pollen from one flower to another, but that seems like something the Drifters could do themselves.
Only… Ms. Priano? Do the Hives ever connect directly to each other?
Because if they don’t, then the most reliable method of shipping stuff from one Hive to another might be … us.
I would agree… if those fleets ever brought back useful information, instead of just pillaged loot. Doesn’t look like fact finding missions from this angle.
I might agree if the “loot” were something hugely profitable and valuable instead of something bizarre that lives at the intersection of mystifying, terrifying, and (so far) useless.
There’s a bit of other stuff, but everything else you can find in other places with less effort and risk. And we do bring back information: just, for the last couple years it’s mostly consisted of, “No significant change, and we STILL don’t know what this thing is or what it’s doing.”
Still worth doing. If something changes in there, we’re probably going to want to know as immediately as possible.
They do tend to ignore capsuleer ships that maintain a certain distance from the wormhole entrances to their systems. However, whether this is a lack of ill-intent or simply being a bit lazy… that’s still up in the air. However, they also continue to initiate action in each of the four Empires, even if it’s in a limited manner. At this point, their side is undertaking sustained aggression on a wider scale than we are, and the forces that ignore us may simply be guards who are unwilling to be drawn off their posts.
So ‘hostility’ may be an assumption, but it’s not exactly a stretch.
It’s really not. Their doomsdays are actually less potent than our older models, and we’ve never seen any of them fire it a second time. A hundred of them hit Seraph. As you pointed out, there was no ability to bubble them. We’ve been able to take them on in subcaps. I think that as long as we have sufficient logistics available, the ‘wild weasel’ concept can scale up to fleet-sized operations without much difficulty.
I’m actually on Miz’s side on this one: the loot may be ‘mystifying, terrifying and (so far) useless’, but it remains the only thing coming out of those forays. For all that ARC and SERAPH have been collecting artifacts on these forays, we’ve learned nothing about them. All that recovered material, and we’re learning nothing.
Until that changes, ARC’s missions into the hives aren’t actually serving their purpose, and I think it’s important to recognize that. SERAPH… well, that’s a blood hunt, so different goals, and all.
Well, first, that partly means that the returns from research into the Elements aren’t really back, not that they’re not happening (though I can’t say I’m privy to the details), and, second, if something changes in one of the Hives, we’re going to want to know. SERAPH might notice, but, especially if it’s subtle, it’ll probably be ARC that picks up on it first.
But they have to be able to watch for changes over time, so, regular visits: kind of important. Possibly the difference between finding out in time to do something critical, and not.
Why? Are they flying ships with particularly more powerful sensors? Bringing in dedicated scientific vessels that aren’t busy shooting drifters? What exactly does ARC do during Hive ops that SERAPH doesn’t?
Perhaps they pay attention to the environment around the drifters, rather than focusing on purely shooting the drifters themselves. Depends on the intent in the engagement and the mindset of the pilots involved I suppose
