@stefnia_Freir and ISD
I’m opening this thread to accommodate a discussion being had in another thread and since I don’t want my posts hidden or deleted for being off-topic I’m creating this thread.
It all started with this quote:
And went from there…
So I read your ideas and I admit I only understand about 70% of the post, not enough to have constructive criticism, but I do like the idea quoted above.
Things would have to be shuffled for sure in order to work out Collateral based on game items for isk so we could have somewhat of a logical financial system for N.E but again, I have absolute certainty that if CCP wanted to do it they could.
EvE’s financial system as it is today isn’t the result of organic exchange between the empires, capsuleers and pirate factions ( I assume they build and sell as well otherwise why would they have mining fleets? besides the fact that the game developers manipulate the ecosystem to benefit their bottom line ) but purely the result of real-world economics and business practices. It takes away immersion and castrates the Lore.
Some parts are technical. Because there are a lot of hoopholes we need to care about.
The idea you quoted is basically “you can’t undercut with certainity unless you have a high enough difference”.
Yes, they could add more abusable features in the game. I’m 100% sure they can do that with ease ^^
They have different fleets. Different models. The relation between empires and capsuleers are restricted to sanctioned activities, like agents, NPC orders, PI installation, and CONCORDOKEN.
Therefore, the two world are also economically dissociated.
In a world where you are a demigod, you can’t immerse in the common people’s life.
There are like, what … 100k capsuleers ? for 50 T people ? that’s one capsuleer per 500M person.
But NPCCP does take taxes on transactions/reprocessing/PI… happening between those two “dissociated” worlds. I don’t find that logical in the least, especially, according to lore, capsuleers are recruited by NPC empires against pirates and other empires.
Heracles, Perseus, Achilleus and others did. They helped the people by doing incredible feats that’s why they were held in high regard… lore.
Yes, that’s part of the sanctioned interactions.
Does not mean it has ANY impact on non-capsuleer economy. Which does not exist from a gameplay perspective.
They are mythological figures, not historical ones. They historically did nothing.
Of course, why am I not surprised.
That’s my point. There is no non-capsuleer economy so all the so-called taxes go directly in NPCCP’s pocket.
Our characters capsuleers don’t exist either. They are not historical figures.
Mythology is the fiction of the ancients.
EvE is a fiction for our time.
Not much difference.
What strikes me about EvE ( and most online games for that matter ) is it reminds me of something that happened when I played Wurm Online ( player server )
I had built my farm, my pier, my inn… then a GM spawned as a huge troll and started destroying everything and attacking me, just for fun. I bet he found it hilarious… that’s what CCP/EvE reminds me of. A server run by a group of people who are having fun destroying players’ assets/playstyle
and getting a kick out of it all the way to the bank.
Which is precisely where it come from !!
If I don’t exist, who are you talking with ? ^^
I believe your original point was, that in order to have a more complex and realistic economy, there should be loans, stock market. Those would require to have the capsuleers economy linked with the non-capsuleers economy in a dynamic way, that is : dynamic BO and SO for most materials (including minerals, ore, components), even with theoretical backing volume and production (so when you sell in Jita IV moon 4 you sell to “caldari faction” rather than to “Jita trading hub” ), those numbers being high enough that no capsuleer could impact it.
In that case CCP can become New Eden’s Central Bank and work out some coherent financial system and stock market and stop pretending that EvE is a sanbox in an organic “ecosystem”.
I didn’t say YOU don’t exist. Your capsuleer doesn’t. It has no birth certificate, no parents, no social security number, no credit card or even a bank account… it doesn’t exist.
That’s right.
That remains to be seen. Some capsuleers have trillions of isk. I’m sure some of those fat Null corporations could and do impact the market now.
This feels like a Twatter feed.
♫ Fee-lings… nothing more than feelings… Feeeeeelings… ♬
That’s not exactly how I remember that song 
I also don’t understand how we can have Taxes in EvE when there is no financial system set up for the empires/federations yet the taxes go to the NPCCP.
Taxes were set up to fund certain projects and infrastructure creation/maintenance to benefit a country as a whole in real life. That makes sense.
What do the taxes in EvE benefit?
Where does the isk go to?
Why 10% ?
Why do the rich capsuleers in New Eden pay the same taxes than the poor ones, besides the fact that there is no financial system in the game?
And if there is no financial system, banks, credits, stock market and the equivalent of an Internal Revenue Service then there shouldn’t be any taxes at all.
Can anyone explain all that or should I stick my head in the sand and pretend that everything makes sense in this game?
Well, what is sure is, we can ^^
You don’t need to know all the economy behind to pay your tax. You just need to be known by the tax collector.
Taxes are a part of the work produced that is dedicated to state. But you don’t know what they are used for. They can as well be embellized, used for war or corrupt politician priest propaganda.
All you know is, a state needs taxes, and you are to pay those.
So there is a tax BECAUSE there in an increase in value.
Now in the game there is another reason : if the amount of money in the game increases then the value of items decreases too. The more you farm, the less you earn.
Since the game is not driven by innovation, the total value that you can create at a time is not increasing as it is RL. So there should not be an inflation. So, the amount of money in the game should equate pretty much to the amount of goods in the game. Just as the goods can be destroyed, the money must be destroyed. And the best way to do so, is taxes. RL you create money by a loan, and you need to use that money to make benefits, that will allow you to pay the loan back. A part of those benefits is taxed to allow the state to work. In the game, it’s the same, except you are in a secondary financial system where you only get paid(isk faucet) and taxed(isk sink).
The tax collector works for a governmental agency. Where is that agency in EvE? Non-existent.
Don’t know what the isk taken as “taxes” is used for either.
I know it’s the law.
There is a tax because the government needs to pay back the banks that holds said gov’s cahones.
Ok. So it’s not a tax and shouldn’t be called tax. It’s more like racketeering.
Well, you don’t have to pretend it makes sense, because it doesn’t. You’re trying to fit a somewhat awkward, artificial game design into various “real world finance setup” scenarios. People can come up with a dozen ways to “headcanon” this but it wouldn’t really mean anything.
Games charge ‘taxes’ and other fees because they want “sinks” to remove some of the excess resources in the game. In games, endless resources are created out of thin air (eg. NPC bounties). They will accumulate forever if there aren’t also ways to remove them. Trade between players doesn’t remove ISK, it just shifts it around. Taxes are an ISK sink because the ISK is actually removed from player circulation. The numbers set are arbitrary numbers because someone at CCP just picks a number that sounds OK, and they lost their in-house economist years ago.
If you like, you can assume the taxes go to support the Empire who’s jurisdiction they’re charged in. (Somebody’s gotta pay for those FacPo patrols.) And you can assume that there’s no banking system available to capsuleers because banks are run by megacorps, and megacorps only care about banking with other megacorps.
Which doesn’t prevent you from starting up a capsuleer “banking corp” and building a trustworthy reputation such that players trust banking with you. It’s been done before… except it always ends in tears because at some point the funds build up to where the “trustworthy” banker just skips town with the loot.
The EVE economy could in fact be dressed up with an active stock trading market, a banking system, etc., but why? It’s a lot of work that doesn’t really add to the “ships in space” game, but would only appeal to the spreadsheet-warriors and the ever-present crowd looking for a way to exploit and break anything new CCP tries. And you can be guaranteed any new financial system implemented by CCP would be exploitable and breakable.
So if I do get that straight, I should never buy PLEX for isk because then I’m taxed three times, if not four.
The only isk I should have is isk I earned in game, isk coming from CCP and then going back to CCP through taxes.
Also, I’m taxed paying for Omega time because I’m essentially paying to play/get isk that will either go up in smoke when I lose a ship or taxed/confiscated because we can’t have too much value items/isk in the game.
In essence, Omega is paying for the privilege to lose isk… or lose period.
@Kezrai_Charzai Thank you so much for your post, really.
@ISD_Traindriver If you could close this thread, please, I’d appreciate it.
I don’t believe it serves anyone anymore and answer was given to my satisfaction.
o7
Well it’s CCP. This is a game, of course things are missing.
Precisely my point.
Hu ? No.
The banks are paid with the interest rate of their loans.
It is a tax because it is taken from an activity that produces value. It would be racket if it was taken at arbitrary time.
No if what you say is, those taxes should have an impact … Well I disagree and I don’t : again, for it to make sense, the total value of each empire should be wayyyy over what a few capsuleer can even think of obtaining.
@stefnia_Freir Thank you. I’m satisfied with @Kezrai_Charzai answer. I believe I got the explanation I was seeking.
I don’t want to play a game like that. I don’t want to contribute to someone’s wallet if I’m not getting anything in return but insults on my intelligence with gimmicks like Taxes because developers can’t figure out how to deal with player agency.
I don’t think Sienna Massilia will exist for much longer. It was fun while it lasted.