Expert Systems - Coming Soon!

[Vintus_Turgalium]

@Han_Zealot

I find this obsession with " You’re lying until I see proof " so insulting in this context. Maybe it’s just me.

I am not obsessed, I am a new player who simply doesn’t know Brusc - therefore I do not know IF he tells me the truth, though I state clearly if it is true, then I am wrong.

@Han_Zealot

Saying to a CSM " if you are telling the truth…" don’t you see how that can be insulting to someone? Someone who’s volunteering to be the middle man between a corporation and it’s customers… I’m not jumping on you so don’t take it the wrong way but I think a little respect towards CSM would be nice.

I do not respect someone merely because they hold a position. I respect both Brusc and Mike now - although I respected Mike before due to Rookie Help Chat & his Bus Program - I respect them both now for holding a discussion with me, a debate even, whilst being respecftul, being what seems honest, and having integrity to their ideas. They held themselves well and I take them at their word. That’s all I can do right now.

[Ramona_McCandless]

@Han_Zealot

Saying to a CSM " if you are telling the truth…"
don’t you see how that can be insulting to someone?

Oh oh pick me

I do I see Miss I see why it is. Its why Ive said it too.

But it is also his job to be tactically flexible with the truth. He does it for a living, dont forget.

[Han_Zealot]

@Vintus_Turgalium

I am not obsessed

I was talking generally…Not necessarily you.
I get pissed when someone insinuates I could be lying. I HATE lies and I hate liars.

@Vintus_Turgalium

I do not respect someone merely because they hold a position

It’s not Respect that is supposed to be earned, it’s Trust. People get those two confused.

@Vintus_Turgalium

I respect both Brusc and Mike now - although I respected Mike before due to Rookie Help Chat & his Bus Program - I respect them both now for holding a discussion with me, a debate even, whilst being respecftul, being what seems honest, and having integrity to their ideas

Respect is common courtesy. Without respect we’re at each other’s throat. It can’t work without mutual respect from the get go, nothing can.

@Vintus_Turgalium

They held themselves well and I take them at their word. That’s all I can do right now

You speak as if they owed you something, sorry, that’s how it sounds to me. But I don’t want to get into it with you or any other member of this forum, ever again.

[Vintus_Turgalium]

@Han_Zealot

You speak as if they owed you something, sorry, that’s how it sounds to me. But I don’t want to get into it with you or any other member of this forum, ever again.

So you mean you have YOUR interpretations, wish to espouse them and allow no retort?

If so, then that is okay by me. I won’t respond any further but that seems a little silly.

[Han_Zealot]

@Vintus_Turgalium

but that seems a little silly.

Then I’m silly and that’s okay.

[Vintus_Turgalium]

Indeed, that’s okay.

[Arrendis]

@Mike_Azariah

Most of the folks commenting in this thread are vets so I ask you to think back to when you had NO skills and had to decide what to train next, worried that that time might be wasted. That you would fall behind. Or that you would decide on a career only to find that you did not enjoy it and all those skills had been misplaced.

Which is exactly why I worry that these will encourage wallet-warriors. I still remember that ‘OMG, I saved up for enough to get a Stabber!’ a week after I had the skills for the thing. Skills tick over when you’re not logged in. The time on this thing still runs out when you’re not logged in. Unless you’re playing the market, you don’t make ISK when you’re logged out.

It takes time to get the ISK to use ships, just like it takes time to get the SP to use them. I wholeheartedly support the idea of giving players a taste of higher-SP life, and letting them test-drive different parts of gameplay before they spend irreplaceable time skilling into them.

I just don’t think this route is the right one. It’s too likely to be a money trap for players who don’t have friends already in the game to warn them off of spending more RL $$$ to try to get a jump on making ISK while their skill queue ticks over. There are other ways to do it. Make it part of the tutorial. Give new accounts 250k free SP at start and 30d to move those SP around freely as they try things. And yes, there’s the potential for some abuse there, but really, moving your SP around to min-max for this fleet or that fleet gets tiring, fast.

But this, combined with EVE’s complexity and opacity, and the immense learning curve involved with ship fitting… I really think this is a well-intentioned step right onto a landmine.

@Oriki_Ahvilen

This is one of the rare moments when you see a CSM member saying something that makes sense.

Mike and Brisc both have a history of taking the concerns from these boards right back to CCP to try to get them to listen. It’s why wormholers can still roll holes reliably w/HICs.

@Vintus_Turgalium

If you are telling the truth

He is. It was a pretty public explosion of egg all over CCP’s faces. I’d link it, but the matter’s been resolved for almost 2 years now.

[Vintus_Turgalium]

@Arrendis

@Vintus_Turgalium

If you are telling the truth

He is. It was a pretty public explosion of egg all over CCP’s faces. I’d link it, but the matter’s been resolved for almost 2 years now.

Thank you for verifying. I have only played since '20 and I just recently came back after several months away so there is much I do not know.

[Lillith_Sakata]

Cross-posting because I’ve already typed it up:
CCPlz, if you have feet to put down, now is the time to do so. I can smell Pearl Abyss style greed all over this. Expert Systems is a plain and simple money grab that will cause new players to spend some money, then quickly find out that a new ship without player skill behind it leads to nothing more than shinier loss-mails.

Skill injectors are bad enough at causing this kind of issue. The reason many people are good at flying a particular ship is the time spent learning how to fly. If you don’t spend time flying tackle, or kitey ■■■■■■■■, etc, you won’t know how to counter it. If you never get into a cruiser, and go straight to battleships, you won’t realise why you lose battleships to cruisers.

Eve has never been a good game for instant gratification, and trying to make it one with P2W style character twinking hurts new players in the long run, and also generally pisses off the people who have been paying y’all’s checks these past 12+ years.

This reeks of the same ■■■■ Pearl Abyss killed other games with trying to milk new players, and I honestly feel it will cause retention to go down.

Plus, to be honest, older players may decide this is the final straw that breaks the camel’s back.

Tldr: CCP, you’re walking A VERY fine line if you implement this. Plus, it’s just a stupid ass idea anyways. Fix the onboarding process instead.

Typed on a phone. Excuse typos and grammatical errors.

Update: In addition, the player then has a ship that they then have to continue to plex into, or let it collect dust in a hangar.

It’d be better to just let the player grow in the game over time and learn why they want to stay, instead of the false allusion to instant winning in PvX because they got some temporary skills - likely based on a CCP ■■■■-fit, and finding out that this isn’t how the game works as they lose the ship.

Also, from another thread, this is also relevant here, even though for a slightly different OP: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/lsedtd/npe_discussion/goqqjeh?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Another update in response to a related topic that still fits in here (it was about removing time-based training):
The ‘antiquated system’ is the main reason many of us bother to pay for EvE. 90% of the other ■■■■ out there makes me grind away at some stupid-ass task watching my character fumble around like a dumbass for hours on hours to gain a skill. Then I have to leave for an extended period for work, and I come back and have to repeat the whole ■■■■■■■ process because of skill deterioration over time.

■■■■ that. EvE lets me pay for the game, get skills for ships that I theory-craft like a ■■■■■■■■■■■■ until I can actually sit in it, and undock without scratching the paint. By the time I sit in the ship, I have a very strong idea of exactly what I can expect of it. What I can and cannot engage (usually based on my ability to kill others that flew the ship before), what ranges I need to be in, what weapon systems I have to watch out for.

Or how to surprise the ■■■■ out of people by fitting a ship in the exact opposite way that is expected that is still viable – like my >1k DPS Stratios (with drugs) that can move, or some of the other ideas I get that work well – and plenty more that do not end up working well but still are fun to come up with and test in practice.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Ramona_McCandless

But it is also his job to be tactically flexible with the truth. He does it for a living, dont forget.

No, I don’t. I lie in my day job and nobody takes me seriously again.

[Ramona_McCandless]

Yes of course, silly me.

Strategically dynamic, I should have said.

[mchend]

but you work in politics right? …
j/k aside I think the character attacks are out of line.
I disagree with you on the substance of the argument thought.

[Epiphany_Blacque]

Retention, immersion, not this!

Seems like a race to the bottom of you ask me!

There are some sound ideas on this thread:

What do players want?

Like any game or indeed business, In short EVEs player base needs to grow The game needs to attract fresh blood and new recruits. I’m working on some development work in the background and want to pose an open question to the great and good of this forum CCP was quoted as saying they wanted EVE to be much more than a spaceship game What do new players want? What attracts new players to EVE Features, content or something else? PVE is a big part of the games’ appeal to new players and somet…

@CCP_Dopamine

[Astelon_Bheskagor]

as new player i thank CCP it is very considerative from them more optiuns & diversity for me.

But what have the old players received ? Next step will be to create for them The Noob Systems.
The noob systems will be a challenge for old players that want to experience something exciting in the game.
I can see this work just as the expert system, you buy with cash, lasts a week in which you get to experience cool features .
I don’t know much about this but those features for The Noob System for the veterans could be:

• your ship takes damage while in space , just like those acid clouds in missions, the morew you are in space the more damage you get
• the efficiency of the weapon systems is limited , you have less range , bad tracking , reduced damage, drones also suffer from this
• your ship is slower
• ship agility is reduced as of using an oversized prop mod
• lock time is increased by 50% and targetting range decreased by 50%
• warp speed is limited to 1 AU max
• drug side effects increased by 75%
• while activating the noob system any implants that you have are gone
• shield boosting and armor repair decreased by 50%
• mining speed of mining lasers and drones is cut by halp
• efficiency of exploration modules is reduced by 33%
• cloaking consumes capacitor
• you have no local chat
• trading fees increased by 25%
• directional scanner is limited to 5 AU
• capacitor capacity and regeneration reduced by 33%

I can think of some many other great features

This will motivate old players to better themselves , to accept challenges and prove themselves that they are worthy , it will bring old players back into the game and give them something exciting and challenging to do.

[addelee]

Another bull ■■■■ system that no one asked for and no one wants.

If you want new players to stay with the game , fix your ■■■■. There’ s plenty there. Just hang out in rookie help after downtime watching people ask why their mission won’t work or where is the sensor overlay (which is irrelevant to that mission).

This is just another micro-transaction disguised as something else. If you’re going to be a wolf at least wear wolfs clothing.

Edit:

So I went to rookie help and the first question asked was:

Akezo Rissapper > hi, i got killed on the tutorial career agent mission before completing it. I had items in cargo that i needed to courier. What should I do now?

The answer, petition. really? is that their only option for someone who’s played the game for 10 mintues

[Miranda_Farron]

@addelee

What should I do now?

Insert Coin.

[Jaime_Saberr]

Real cash for temp skills…
Unless these are dirt cheap as in $1 - $2 this sounds like a bad deal.

If its for player retention, how is a payment for temp skills going to convince a new player CCP isn’t just out to rip them off when the skills disapear and they realize its going to take a repeat skill rental payment or 4-6-8 months, or even years of training, with an omega subscription no less, etc to get the skills back?

[addelee]

@Miranda_Farron

Insert Coin.

Pretty much.

The only advice I’d ever give new player for eve is to not train to specific ships. You spend months (sometimes years) training into something and then ccp move the goalposts and the ships worth ■■■■ all and back to square one.

If they were going to do something like the loot box then support skills would make sense but they’re not the carrot on the stick ccp are looking for I guess.

It appears Mike and Brisc are fully behind this therefore endored by csm. Normally I agree with these guys but avoidance in fixing a broken system isn’t something I could get behind.

[Shipwreck_Jones]

@Brisc_Rubal

Come on, dude. Every single time they announce any kind of monetization, we get the inevitable slippery slope nonsense about gold ammo and the like.

So, it’s not always to fallacious to call something a slippery slope, and CCP has been introducing more and more monetization methods that I don’t like. Obviously, these monetization methods aren’t deal breakers for me, but I still don’t like them, and I think that it is warranted to be concerned about where CCP will go from here. After all, they received a ton of backlash after they first sold SP directly to players, and not only do we have SP still being sold directly to players, but now they’re selling skill books as well.

Now, the player base has a diverse set of opinions concerning monetization, so I most certainly can’t speak for everyone. However, there are definitely a lot of people who think as I do about this issue. Thus, as my space lawyer, I would like you to make it clear to CCP (whenever appropriate) that they should:

1. ensure that player skill is always the biggest factor in determining outcomes,
2. be very wary of offering anything that affects game balance on the cash shop that can’t be obtained within game, and
3. ensure that the optics concerning monetization don’t paint the game as P2W.

Yeah, one of the most common types of comments on my What is Eve? video was either people asking if Eve was P2W, or people asserting that Eve was P2W. So, this is most certainly something that new and potential players think about. And stuff like this isn’t likely to convince them that Eve isn’t P2W.

Slippery slope

[Nevyn_Auscent]

@Shipwreck_Jones

• ensure that player skill is always the biggest factor in determining outcomes,
• be very wary of offering anything that affects game balance on the cash shop that can’t be obtained within game, and
• ensure that the optics concerning monetization don’t paint the game as P2W.

Expert Systems change none of the above. (Ok, allowing for the fact that some people will always be delusional when it comes to optics)
So I don’t see the issue.