Final days for the ABC Moon pulls

Industry Gameplay Center Mining & Extraction
41

Not entirely sure if this post of on topic or not …

I appreciate the direction that CCP is attempting to send the game in. I also understand that they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Rock: A healthy economy requires supply limitation (ie avoiding infinite renewable resources that exceed the demand for them)

Hard Place: Limited access to resources (and total amount) allows the “big” guys to muscle out the “little” players

Removing accessibility and reducing the mining rates (via nerfs) of infinite renewable resources reduces the rate at which problems compound. It does not resolve them. Despite the mining nerf’s we have not seen a significant reduction in production rates in areas like Delve and Jita.

If you want to see healthy profits and impactful PVP battles (where the attrition from ship losses has a significant impact on a factions power) you need to reduce the supply of these infinite respawning ores.

I just cant think of a good supply reduction solution that would maintain the capitalist “free market” framework the game is built on that would retain a foothold for the individual new player to still be able to be impactfull in.

I suspect many industrialists like me would be happier in a environment where resource scarcity leads to 10 industry jobs slots have the same total profit amounts we are currently generating with 30.

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43

Im not into mining/production field, but the fact that they are trying to make people move and fight for resources is the best change theyve made for good couple years. I wish its just a beginning and in next years we will see more big scale wars and real conflicts.
Lets hope that blueball era is coming to the end.

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44

It is not the industry that is the problem - it is sheer supply of inputs that is. Thanks to that you didn’t have to think at all about what you are making. Just do it.

This is not what was done. What is the problem was the sheer size of stockpiles and wealth creation that was out of whack and had to be balanced. You should stop spewing ■■■■■■■■. All real industrialists and traders are happy for the changes that are happening as w/o scarcity you can’t make isk on either of these actvities.

Except EvE already is “only PVP”. Almost. You are talking to a troll that doesn’t accept market and industry as pvp. (btw I don’t consider mining as industry - it is resource extraction)

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45

Yeah this was a baited statement but you seem to have gotten that aspect before I got a response :stuck_out_tongue:

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46

I’ve just recently come back to the game. About a month ago now, after about a year and a half to two years of inactivity. Not sure how long, currently on my laptop

Regardless, while I understand the imputes for these changes, I do feel a teensy little bit shafted because as it currently stands, it’s very difficult for me to get into industry. It’s much more profitable for me to just mine moon goo and ice instead of going into an asteroid belt to mine materials to use in production, as all of the asteroids just aren’t worth it, even in null. The only way it could be worth it for me to mine asteroids instead is with ore prospecting arrays, but the alliance I’m in currently in doesn’t have access to sov null.

The only way I could get into industry at this moment in time, is to mine that ice and moon goo, sell it, use that money to buy compressed ore in Jita, haul it out into my home in null, refine and produce, then haul that product all the way back. It just doesn’t make much sense for me to go through all that hassle for a significantly smaller profit margin in the end with the 800 isk/m3 hauling price.

Or maybe I’m dumb and the numbers do add up, mostly because I haven’t looked into actual production quite yet due to the lack of value in mining asteroids combined with my current lack of raw capital to haul the materials I need for production

Tl;Dr: While I understand the imputes for the changes, and do agree with the eventual goal, I feel mildly shafted as a returning player with minimal capital trying to get into industry.

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47

This is the very reason why I wanted to run on the CSM this year. I think the lack of industrial players from the bottom up model on the CSM when these changes were possibly discussed could have blinkered the plan.

The issue was the stack ability of the Rorqual, the mineral stocks in holds already. We could have instead increased material requirements for ship stopped multiple Rorquals online in the same grid, Removed excavs and increased boosting potential for fleets, lots of other alternatives that still allow those who enjoy mining to maintain a feasible career still.

If you share a similar view I would love your support on the CSM voting this year and let your folks know who also share similar views. At the very least keep making your opinion and voice heard on these very forums!

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48

I’m having a hard time interpreting your second sentence, I’m assuming its meant to be read as " We could have instead increased material requirements for ship [blueprints , ] stopped multiple…"

I am concerned about modifying the material requirements of blueprints. As it stands, a certain (unknown) percentage of the player base is siting on huge stockpiles of already built items. Until those stockpiles are eliminated, the production of anything “new” would not be financially viable.

You get a similar short term problem with reducing total global minable (sp?) asteroid ore volume (which I believe CCP is already planning on doing) but I believe that route would resolve its market disruption problem a lot faster.

Second, I hear the argument about the Rorqual mining yield being far to high. I can see the impact its having on the economy. I am still hesitant about nerfing its yield without compensation.

Whenever possible I want to incentive’s players moving away from utilizing ISK faucets (ie things like Ratting and mission running). Last time I checked, compared to Rorqual mining, Ratting in a carrier would generate almost double the income for less than 50% of the investment. As the top end forms of active PVE nullsec income (I’m classifying production as passive) , we need to strive to make those more equivalent. Unless we can make ore significantly more valuable, nerfing mining rates on Rorqual’s will make that imbalance even worse.

Perhaps, in compensation for a mining drone nerf, Industrially command ships also get a massive buff to their mining command link bonuses. Done right, you would see fewer Rorquals and more actual mining fleets. The Rorqual could become only viable when its support numerous other ships (and conveniently making its compression ability downright essential).

If you combine that with the upcoming resource scarcity, you might end up with substantial competition over mining belts (something that doesn’t really exist right now).

Edit:
Before somebody points it out, I did play the game in the era before Industrial Command ships had a hull bonus for mining drones. Even with them behind able to hide behind POCO shield, the fleet boosting bonuses was far far too small to be justified outside of massive fleets.

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Yeah sorry I was trying to provide a reply on my phone and my fingers do not type very well along with the auto correct, we get messy bodies of text often.

I was suggesting there are other alternatives that could have been investigated or even implemented that could have got a better, faster result as you mentioned in your post. I think the only way that would have ever happened is with a candidate on the CSM who has a life style that is effected the most with said changes.

I would like to think that there are always other better alternatives, they just need objective and logical people on the CSM to help work through all of the available options.

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The setup you are describing is incurring massive Logistics expenses in two directions in order to centralize all your purchase and sell orders in a major trade hub. Have you considering doing any of the purchases and sales in your null sec home?

High sec trade hub exchange potential profit margins for potentially higher turnover rates (its an opportunity cost)

To give context numbers, I am living in the Feythabolis Region. It is a tiny market compared to The Forge.

Six months ago, I made the transition to a corporation down there (from High sec). All of my sell orders are now on the local null sec market hub. Resources i cannot aquire locally are purchased from Jita using a jump clone on the weekend (and then shipped) I have not changed what I am producing.

Despite that, I posted 26 Billion in Null Sec Market Sales Revenue last month (based on the in game wallet tool). I have been managing this using 10-20 industry job slots and ~250 average listed market orders. (Edit: I estimate that it generated 20-25 Billion ISK in profits over 4 months)

When I made the comparison (for my personal operation) it appears that operating in null sec required a willingness to allow things to sell 5-10% as fast (as a high sec hub) in exchange for significantly larger per unit profit margin and minimal competition. I almost never update my null sec orders.

I recognize that I might be rare in that I am okay with something taking 60 days to sell. I also recognize that the numbers i listed are trivial to some other members of the community. But I want to challenge you to explore selling at least some of what you make locally. At the very least, you are helping your alliance become more self sufficient.

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I have considered selling locally, yeah. The problem is both a lack of material at home, and a lack of demand. Due to the aforementioned asteroid problem, nobody extracts ores locally because it just doesn’t make much sense to do so. So I’m pretty much forced to import if I want to produce anything locally

Beyond that issue, the local market is simply too small. Sure, there are some components that are used my most people, and in regular volume. I’ve yet to run the proper numbers, which I’ll honestly go do the moment I finish writing this, but it’s a small amount of items, and in a volume where I’m questioning just how much I can actually earn. Also doesn’t help that those items are mostly T2, but y’know. Ah well

Despite my post above, I think I’ll figure out something out eventually. Mostly just expressing mild annoyance at the fact that I seemed to have chosen an inconvenient time to return.

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52

The long term global effect of the behavior you indicated is would be a reduction in current available produced item supply. Ships are still being destroyed, and while new ships are being made, those replacements are not appearing on the market.

Players will be incentivized (sp?) to sell off their “pantry” if prices climb as a result of a reduction in sell order market supply.

However the deflationary effect (of a “pantry” sell-off) would be partially cancelled out if CCP times their implementation of the proposed ore distribution nerf correctly. This is because it would reduce the future capacity for market sell order replenishment. They also need to design that nerf correctly, which is a whole nother can of worms.

53

The general consensus I have heard, both in null sec and in high sec, is that CCP has decided to eliminate the industrialist class of players from the game. We have strived to build our skills, so that we could eventually fly Rorquals, thus generating high volumes of minerals necessary to do advanced manufacturing. Instead, we now have very small asteroids in all belts, which last 1-3 mining cycles only. This forces us to move now stop and have a limited range of 15km, unless boasted by another players ship and skill. Rorqual mining drones (6 billion isk for 5) if now a waste of money. CCP needs to realize that many players in this game are not interested in PVP or Incursions, we avoid combat sites, and only defend ourselves against npc rats that attack us in mining belts. It is time to restore the previous sizes / volumes of the asteroid, so that loyal, long term players of the game can once again enjoy signing on and playing what they enjoy. Without that reversal of game play policy, I foresee many subscribed players departing for other gaming platforms.

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54

300-350m each. 6b full fitted rorqual.

you are not a long term player. long term player adapting and dont whine on forums

that is your fault. actually is gun mining top income.

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55

  1. i agree with you are evil on many points

  2. Wanda Saissore i doubt CCP has decided to eliminate any class of players from the game (except botters). Stop with the complot theory, please

you are aware that we are only in a TEMPORARY scarcity phase, and that CCP announced an incoming dynamic redistribution phase, yes? so, maybe, instead of whining about the current scarcity phase, which will finally increase the demand and the prices and thus maintain your profits, you could try to adapt and wait for the next phase? Mining with boosted exhumers with a longer range in the meantime ?

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56

I wonder who you talk to. I mean, I get that when your game gets hit with the nerf bat people take it personally, but it is a bit of a stretch to conclude that CCP has decided to delete one of the major pillars of the game because they are rebalancing how resources enter the universe.

They do. They also realize that resource generation and industry had grown far too easy over the years devaluing the activity and making the stuff you make worthless, or at least worth less. So much so, it was killing the reason to struggle for resources or use those weapons of war you build against anyone else.

I’m always perplexed at how so many players can’t see that they share a universe and whatever happens to them, happens to their competitors. These changes benefit the saavy industrialist, hurting the bots and the entrenched farmers, and opening room for your effort to matter more.

:roll_eyes: “Make my game easier or no one will play your game!” Yeah, that transparent threat has never worked. You need to actually leave before CCP will take any notice.

A reset like this can be good for the soul. Take a break, come back when CCP has iterated some more on resource generation, and I bet you’ll fall in love with the industrial game all over again. Sure, giant, infinite asteroids you can multibox mine may not be there, but your abilities and efforts will be so much more appreciated in an era of scarcity and real need.

Or not. The game will still go on either way.

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57

As nullsecer. I don’t think anything will change much anymore. At the moment only the mining of mercoxite or ice is worthwhile in relation to bounties/ratting.

There is simply nothing between exhumers (300M cost and boosted 200K ores M3/h) and Rorqual (5-7B and 600k ores m3/h). Rorqual doesn’t want to see CCP anymore and exhumers are less profitable than going rats. So CCP must either introduce something between exhummer and Rorqual, or nerf Ratting strongly. Or the price of the ores will continue to rise, which I don’t really believe.

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58

but if the price of ores continues to rise, then mining with exhumers will become as profitable (or more profitable ?) than going rats, so miners and industrialists will be happy

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59

yes, this would be the optimal direction for miner and industrials. but the question is
will the demand be covered in the long term, or will everything become even more expensive?

60

if things became more expansive

  1. more people would start mining/building ships because profit would here and then prices would go down
  2. CPP would regulate it, in a similar way as they are trying to regulate things now
61

I see what you mean. We’ll see. I’ll adapt no matter what the way.

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