First CSM Summit Meeting Minutes

I understood that clearly. Maybe it went a bit off hand, yes. And then the CSM guys intervened in the same way that becomes usually destructive of the post’s purpose: failing to see the underlying content of the post and cherrypick on what’s literal.

Look, I don’t think it’s the best idea to give more information that’s exclusively related to the game itself.
In some way, being part to CSM comes with some exposure and it’s consequences. So, if someone is not ready to deal with such, my advise is to get out quickly.
Still, somehow everyone feels that whatever they do has no accountability and that the “rules” don’t require it.

That is a huge disadvantage after all these years. That no matter how much you get involved with the regular lines of communication, no one is accountable, no one has an obligation to give or disclose and no one really goes rogue until it’s too late.

In this direction, the CSM is nothing, means nothing and has no leverage. They can only talk or discuss on topic, ask about what’s available and get back on the forums to discuss if names should be public, instead of recognizing that some of us are asking for information that has been available sometimes but not now in particular. They can’t do better.

So, any info is there because it’s either “beneficial” or “uncompromising”… in other words, not fully scripted but under control.

So, if we forget about CSM for it’s impossible for them to respond, one could argue… “well, what is it for?”

As I said, it’s primary job between the lines should be to proclaim the positive side of whatever is next. And by trying on the minutes, there is very little out here that cannot (and should have) be presented in three lines of release notes in the mid of a fall week. Useless.

No one is accountable and there will ever be contrition acts when EVE is over and done, given that nothing survives to enforce NDAs. So, we might never know.

There are thin lines and thinner ones. For example, one could argue that what happened during the black summer was an attempt against illegality (botting) forced in general population as desperate act of… whatever… disguised as “chaos”…
Now, if someone wanted to know it might be that a legal action would be the only way, with a then not so shallow argument: Why was I forced to dispense with a service I’m paying for, when the service itself was altered as counter something I have not done? It’s just an example, not a discussion point.

I can’t blame CSM guys, really. Their hands could be tied.

I blame us for being so lame, so naive and blindly trust a service we pay for. And never created a true line of communication with the subsequent accountability. CSM is far from that line.
But there will be laws in the future because money is involved and where there’s money, accountability follows. Just look at Belgium and the loot boxes. Just as example.

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Interesting thing to bring up. Not sure I get your point, but still interesting.

CCP doesn’t have any accountability to you, other than to provide you with a service. How they run that is up to them. The power in the dynamic between you, however, comes down to one thing. The money you pay them for the service, and your ability to stop.

Expecting anything more than that is, at best, foolish.

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Dunk Dinkle adds that there is not really any interregional trade but everything goes into Jita.

How about making some of the ore(s) mined in nullsec illegal in highsec. This, combined with regionality of the ores from moons and/or belts would encourage more conflict, as trade would have to occur in lowsec or nullsec, or different coalitions would have to own different moons/systems in various areas in order to build stuff.

Garth

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Without Jita as the central hub and trade station accessible for all players, EvE would have died from blue donut years ago. Like in real life, trade needs a critical mass to work. Force a split and you kill it, or nowadays get it monopolized by one group. See TTT in Perimeter.

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Sure, but the trade at Jita will be for the completed ships/items (which would be accessible to all players), but the nullsec-only resources could be made more region locked. I don’t think this encourages blue donut, but more conflict. I could be wrong though.

Garth

Seems that CCP already have made up their minds. This looks like a hangover meeting, and CCP seemed unprepared, clueless or without proper argument of the current state of things. So with or without the CSM consultations, the future has already been set.

None side of the fence know how to tackle the bleeding effect. Nullification on shuttles and tweaking Ui/Ux vs retention, really? Go ahead and implement it, see if it drastically colour your world!

Anyhow, I barely care at this point.

Thankfully, there’s more to life than Eve online.

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My point is that if people want disclosure, it’s not coming from CSM. We tend to attribute any mediating entity as advocate for “rights” or source of information, well… it’s not here.

I don’t think that when people say they want to know more and that for example, that maybe if the real life CSM ID or whatever was known, then there would be understanding of why some things are brought to the table and others set aside.
It just doesn’t work that way.

I must say tho, that the black summer just revealed that having the player base blindfolded about the future and CCP showing on this CSM summit not willing to remove the bandage, is not the most brilliant of ideas.
People started just saying that there is no plan. Now they are believing it.

Some just would like to know more and I think it’s healthy. This summit was a chance, another missed opportunity to inform… and to ask , we just don’t have answers and have no clue if you guys asked or were even allowed to.

The rest could have been written on some memo or part of the list in a release notes summary.

There are a million reasons to hinder information. I know of none that favors the truth.

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Steven, it is a joke. What important things you were discussing? Nullification on shuttles? FFS EvE now need crude moves. SP trading is helping new players, but what new players want to jump straight into supers anyway? We all new from day one this will be abused in a wrong way, now CCP don’t want to admit they made a mistake because this feature is making them money, all they are doing is find a way to salvage whole thing. They are curing symptoms not disease. 10k imperium supers? Nothing in last minutes encourage me to think problem will be solved.

Another point. Making EvE more accessible for new players. If this will go like with new agency and dumbing down exploration then good luck. EvE will be pretty but dumb. We already had an instant content, it’s called missions. I feel like I’m playing triglavians online now. They dominated whole spectrum of developement but I barely see anything good coming from it.

Citadels. Bad design from the start. If they separate functions on different types innstead made structure modular and lower drop barrier what they did expect? It was know from the start there will be structure spamming.

I can’t find a words after reading ama with Hilmar. Why anybody believe in this guy? I wish I met him eye to eye and find out by myself. Either his so smart or pretend to be the smartes guy in the room. What I saw so far is the latter.

Here is a response to some of the points brought up.

CCP decides what gets released in the minutes. IMHO, it’s a tremendous amount of info compared to what other developers release. The minutes are not a transcript, they are fairly good approximation of what transpired. They are not a transcript of every word, concern, side chat, and interaction.

The CSM and CCP discuss issues daily via several channels. There are no minutes of that and many of the issues brought up of concern are discussed outside of the summit itself.

Regarding the election process, I will quote Winston Churchill, “Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”

The CSM is an advisory group and can’t force CCP to do anything. In such cases, an amiable working relationship usually works better than fist pounding.

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See guys?

There is now one chance in a million they DID ask!

Thank You Mr. Dinkle for your straightforward answer.

You cant read, can you.

I said we brought up skill farming on a number of occasions. You then complain that we talked about nullification on shuttles.

I suspect you don’t get how the csm works. Its not “rant at CCP”, because they just wouldn’t listen to us if we did.

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Those of us with a brain know, ignore the whiners who think your senator and they “pay your salary”

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At least, were hearing from the CSM more. That’s always a positive thing.

Only a few of them

i overlooked it too… spent 30 min lookin, only to realize that what i thought was the title was actually a link

Yeah, that’s a great idea.

:expressionless:

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Can you really blame them? I mean, these guys give up their free time to go and try to help improve the game—not just during the summits, but also with the conference calls every week. And no matter what they do, a significant chunk of people on these forums will only ever treat them like crap, just because they’re on the CSM. Why would they bother posting here? It’s not like they need your vote. Dunk doesn’t, either, but he’s new at this, and still has that new-CSM optimism, I guess.

Steve’s clearly just a rampant masochist. :wink:

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Then maybe csm should summarize their own internal minutes of what topics were brought up for discussion on summit ( something that don’t break nda). For 3 consecutive summit minutes are not so informant. What’s the point to release them? For some bullshittery about giving “new monuntains to climb”, taking about weather effect they been talking for years? Nothing follows that disussions.

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What it does is see those With limited or region fixed resources stockpiling them and price fixing and withholding from market - Which we had prior to the current meta.

Resources don’t create conflict once it is only the biggest groups who control them.

It has taken years of “almost” neglect for the future of the game by CCP to get to where we are now, most of the developers who actually had a clue and cared about the game for more than their paycheck is worth have, moved on, been pushed out, or simply given up.

Can’t expect CCP to be able to “fix” what they don’t understand - Regardless of how many different metrics and statistics CCP collect, without gaining an “understanding” of the game, nothing can or will change for the better.

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