FW Frigate Hub! Discuss All Things Frigate (and Dessie!) In FW Space

If you have the time to change the default orbit value from 500 to 7000 before the Enyo slides in, yes. But the KAR should be on 7000 as an oh ■■■■ button.

Ah yes good point. I usually have the default set to 8000 or so as a scram kitey thing, and the orbit 500 can be used for oh crap rails or beams.

Aye but at 7000m the game somehow still allows me to run the scoped neut on the target, whilst 8000m risks them breaking out of the range of the scoped scram.

On neuty ships I like to go all in, except for blaster ships which I orbit about 5000. I also permaheat scram unless I orbit close. I separate the AB and Scram on the rack so they don’t hurt each other. Instead of the standard A-Type AB, RFMSE, T2 Web, Compact Web, T2 Scram mid setup on my Hookbill, I use the webs and MSE as heat sinks for my AB and Scram. I do Compact Web, AB, RFMSE, Scram, T2 Web. This allows mw to heat my scram for about 12 cycles. Plenty of time for 240 dps to do its work.

I would rather funnel the mid slot heat towards the AB, MASB or TD to help with survival than give it to the scram but sometimes overheating the first cycle of the scram helps with catching kiters on the warp in beacon

Nice to see a long post like this focused on details of frigate fits and fights. I’m looking forward to reading from the beginning, it looks like there are some interesting discussions and fits. I’ve got one little comment/tip regarding the condor tactics here:

If you’re flying a single web rocket ship faction ammo will apply more damage than Rage ammo against any afterburning frigate - despite the lower paper DPS. You need two webs in order for Rage to actually apply better.

This graph compares your condor fit shooting faction rockets VS the same fit shooting rage rockets at a standard blaster atron: condor-vs-atron-1-web — ImgBB

And just as proof of concept this one shows the same thing but the TD has been replaced with a second web on both fits (which makes almost no difference to the faction ammo but an enormous difference to the rage): condor-vs-atron-2-web — ImgBB

Rage is indeed better against destroyers though - as well as anything bigger, obviously. It’s also better against propless frigates ie: kiting MWD ships that you have scrammed. But in FW space I almost always have faction ammo loaded as my default choice in a single web rocket brawler as most fights are against AB frigs. If I warp in on a kiter I have plenty of time to reload while I’m trying to catch him anyway.

With LML ships the difference is even more severe: even shooting at a ship that is under two webs faction missiles still do more DPS to an afterburning frigate than Fury. It’s a really, REALLY common mistake. In fact I think most people get it wrong more often than not. I just looked at my last 10 kills against rocket/missile ships in an afterburner frigate and 7 of them had made the wrong choice and had Rage/Fury loaded.

Hope this is helpful.

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RE: the Griffin Navy:

You’re right if you want to fit a shield extender on a griffin navy you need some kind of fitting mod. I’ve only ever seen it flown with a MASB. Ancilliary boosters are almost the same thing as buffer anyway. A MASB gives just under 2k EHP if you get all the charges off compared to 2000-2500 from shield extenders. If there can be said to be a “typical” fit for such an uncommon ship it’s probably dual web MASB fit with neutron blasters but you have to use compact mods for almost everything else: compact neut, webs, scram and afterburner. Even then it still needs a 1% implant which is what puts me of flying it because I like to use a cheap 3% speed pod with all my FW frigates (to get a small advantage without the seal clubbing feel that comes from flying with snakes in the warzone).

I prefer the look of this version which downgrades the guns and uses two MASBs. DPS is a bit meh but it has a great tank. Just avoid dual web ships as you have terrible range with only electron blasters (then again…there’s always those jam drones!):

[Griffin Navy Issue, 1xWEB 2xMASB]

Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

1MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster
Fleeting Compact Stasis Webifier
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster

Light Electron Blaster II
Small Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Light Electron Blaster II

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small EM Shield Reinforcer II
Small Thermal Shield Reinforcer II

Hornet EC-300 x7

Null S x1000
Void S x800
Cap Booster 50 x120
Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S x1000
Nanite Repair Paste x50

I haven’t had any actual in-game experience with this ship unfortunately - tried it once and died to a gatecamp lol. I only know one person who flew the 2xWeb GNI for a bit and he said he struggled to good fights in it. The biggest problem is probably the name and the ECM drone mechanics putting people off taking a fight that will often come down to a coin flip on whether the jam drones land or not. I do want to fly it, and I hope that problem might be mitigated some by it being such an uncommon ship, but my worry is that the more experienced FW PvPers will just avoid it outright in anything except mwd kiters.

Dang gatecamps lol. I have only flows four cruisers in to lowsec. Ever. 5 fights, zero kills. The first I lost to a hurricane in an acceleration gate camp. The second I lost to a Curse AND a Vagabond because why not. The third I had a freaking amazing fight with a Hecate. He survived on 2% hull. Those first three were all Ruptures. I also lost an XLASB Stabber to a Rook AND a Cynabal because WHY THE HELL NOT!
I see what you are saying, and that does give it a bit of a struggling spot with the GNI, but the neut plus its poor reputation can make it quite nice to fly. Also, you could get some pretty sweet cruiser 1v1s in the GNI if you play it right and don’t fight ships with neuts like Omens, Thoraxes, Exeq Navies, etc.
But yeah, the problem with the GNI with its limited engageability can be solved in my opinion by using it to farm FW complexes. If they try to stop you, sweet. If not, Profit! When roaming though, I usually go with the Hookbill for 5 mid and Comet for dual web blasters.

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I used to pack faction but the truth of the matter is that the patch that improved t2 rocket damage did so by such an excessive amount that the better application is not worth it. This is chiefly because it’s still killing the other player and because I dislike paying my enemies for shooting them. Your argument is valid if they are flying in a straight line, but most of them are not smart enough to do that. Their orbits reduce their velocity and thus mitigate your concern by an acceptable amount.

You can play around with the angle and velocity in pyfa. Setting it to 80% of max speed will give you something like the actual in-game orbit. But the benefit of better application applies to the faction ammo as well so it doesn’t close the gap much unless you drop the speed considerably. I reckon the crossover point is probably something like 50% speed. But that’s only a guess - I’ll have to check.

Or, even better, jump on SISI and do some controlled 1v1s to see the real world performance. I’m certain the ship with faction ammo loaded will perform better.

I’m not opposed to it but frankly there’s currently just not an appreciable difference between the two during live combat in lowsec, so it’s not very high on the priority list. Not an appreciable difference that makes me want to pay my enemy to shoot them in any case.

The argument for faction rockets gets even worse now with the synth drug buff. Getting a 6% application bonus now for hardly any isk and no side effects. If you’re not running crash in a missile boat your just handicapping yourself for no reason.

This is basically my interpretation of it as well. Between implants and consumables, and the enemy’s self-evident inability to fly in a straight line to generate velocity, I am not having any issue whatsoever applying with Rage in a Kestrel or a Condor with the basic Scram+Web setup. I no longer see a place for Caldari Navy rockets outside of PYFA.

Succubuses? Fast things like DDs and Drams? Sigtankers? Especially on destroyers, where an extra web/target painter isn’t an option, CN missiles show their strength.
In addition, a hookbill wanting to apply to a Vigil Fleet or retreating adversary (such as the aforementioned dram) can really use the extra range and application of the faction variant. Using faction in a mirror match allows you to pull out far or apply even whilst chasing. I always carry two types with my Hookbill: EM and Scourge.

There is no sane person who would take a 1400 EHP Condor that relies on tracking disruption, close orbit and sigtanking into a 1v1 with a Succubus, Daredevil or Dramiel.

Hookbill will be running Scram + Web + Web and can use all the Rage Rockets it wishes.

Ye … i have been taking down confessor with that one :)))
Just a reminder there are a different breed pilots lurking in new eden . And kestrel ftw :wink:

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Yes, Kestrel is a dank meme:

Oh can you link that Confessor killmail btw?

A lot of cruors are dumb tbh
why so factiony and not T2?
He died with conflag loaded. No matter what a kestrel does, conflag is wrong
If you were out far, he should have brought Standard. If you were close, multifreq.

I agree you should always use crash in any missile ship (the damage boost on frigs is pretty negligible in practice…but it’s cheap so why not) however drugs give a flat percentage buff so it doesn’t change the calculation. You would be using it whichever ammo you load and the relative difference between the two remains exactly the same.

You could do anything up to 20% more damage by using faction. I don’t understand why anyone would deliberately choose to leave that on the table when frigate fights are often decided by tiny margins. I’m a bit puzzled why there’s any pushback at all against this idea tbh? It’s not as if there’s a downside. Sure, you can of course win many fights without making perfect decisions it but it may make the difference in the close ones.

I’m certainly not going to complain if people in single-web ships keep loading rage against my afterburner frigs…but they are undoubtedly making a suboptimal choice. It’s exactly the same mistake as the cruor choosing to load conflag instead of multi. Speaking of which:

Nice kills :slight_smile: