You can have more HP than they expect. Or you cannot be where they expect you to be. Even full PvP-Ships MOVE if a gang of Alpastrike-Battlecruisers is warping to their location, Mining ships should do for certain.
And especially in HS it’s the best idea, simply not being a target anyone would waste Tornados for.
For example by not fitting ORE miners. Or deadspace hardeners.
Against anything else but Tornados, you can RR, EWAR or killing the attackers quickly so they won’t get their 20seconds of fame. Deal done. Has been done a hundred times and it works. Just not by whining.
Absolutely, every link you have posted has proven that stupid people in HS deserve to be ganked because they fit unnessessary bling on non-combat ships without any support available and tactics to counter potential aggressors. They just sit there, die and then complain.
See now we’re getting somewhere First time someone in this thread has offered any shred of a path forward to reacting to a gank as it’s happening. But yet, you’re still stuck if you’re alpha’d, you have no chance to actively react even if you’re paying the utmost attention. Point of the proposed module is to:
build that time in to react
push gankers to using more expensive ships to gank more expensive targets
Absolutely, every link you have posted has proven that stupid people in HS deserve to be ganked because they fit unnessessary bling on non-combat ships without any support available and tactics to counter potential aggressors. They just sit there, die and then complain.
Good, they do, I’m not saying they shouldn’t. It should just cost more than a few catalysts. I don’t know why that piece hasn’t gotten through to you yet. Maybe you didn’t read anything?
You called me a liar and asked me for a full tanked Skiff getting yeeted by 50m in catalysts. I provided one. It was very easy to find. Is it the best fit? nah, is it full tank, yes, they made tradeoffs, maybe not your specific ones. They traded some raw HP for reduced sig bloom I would bet in an attempt to avoid getting ganked by larger ships.
Furthermore, you neglected to read anything I’ve said so far. I think you should take a step back and make sure you read something before you respond coming in guns blazing and be ready to take the L when you make accusations that were disproven in a matter of minutes
The correct ‘reaction’ against Alphastrike Agressors is to move.
Or setting up a scenario where you can facetank their alphastrike without them expecting that.
Or setting up a scenario where you aren’t a target because they are too expensive to be wasted on non-lucrative targets.
And you have all the time in the world to do any of that.
Not it’s not a full tank fit. It’s a bad fit. Simply that.
Why? The aggressors used 6 chars to kill one. Probably a 7th to provide the warpin+loot. It didn’t only cost them 6 ships, but also 6 times the compensation in sec-status loss via tags.
Had the defender used 7 chars in cooperation for his defense, he wouldn’t be dead, simple as that. 10 people with wooden sticks can kill one guy with an Assault Rifle if he doesn’t pay attention. You can’t balance PvP via “costs”. Has never worked, will never work. People will always bring what they need to get their thing done, and the more chars they can use, the cheaper the tools can get per char. 10 Punishers can kill a HAC, 5 Cruisers a T3C, 20 Hecates can kill a Capital Ship. It is impossible to balance an open-world PvP environment through “costs” of the ships if the players can freely decide how much force they can bring to the field.
Pulling this all back around, the goal is noble but maybe very flawed depending on your playstyle and the proposed module is completely insane even though its intended purpose is nominally good (depending on how you feel about PvP as an overall game mechanic)
I’d argue that you are more protected from highsec PvP than ever before (if folks remember decades prior when a wardecc didnt require an anchored structure to make you vulnerable) and that if your space is getting spicy then the onus is on YOU as an occupier of that space to take appropriate security measures whether you’re in highsec, low or null. This is a wild huge leap in the completely wrond direction if a safe highsec is your goal. I’d honestly rather they make green safety mandatory in highsec than this, and I would be extremely against a change like that.
You leave, they follow - there’s no ability for deterrence here like you can in low or null where you literally kill them and they get sent back to their home station
ECM jamming griffins are great, but you still need to wait until they aggress before you’re allowed to do anything.
This is also circumvented by bringing more catalysts
Tbh the more I talk about this the more I think the problem is cheap destroyers being used to gank are the problem.
Fair, but tbh, you’re safer in low and null than in high.
if your space is getting spicy then the onus is on YOU as an occupier of that space to take appropriate security measures whether you’re in highsec, low or null
But you cannot run deterrence in high sec like you can in low or null, you can’t effectively “shoot first”. Responding to ganking by ganking gankers before they gank is not a gameplay loop that should be encouraged, you’re forcing people into a pirate sec status killing play style. You don’t have the choice.
I’d honestly rather they make green safety mandatory in highsec than this, and I would be extremely against a change like that.
This gets rid of ganking entirely, i’d like to hear more about why this proposal is “very flawed” and maybe something better can come of it. It’s been the only proposal that:
Provides a gameplay lever to balance risk vs reward of ganking
Does not change the outcome for the vast majority of ganks if the target isn’t paying attention
Allows for suitable counter gameplay for groups that are paying attention, putting effort in have defenders on field, etc.
Stop letting people buy security status, and give some actual consequences for -5.0 sec status. At the very least, let non-criminal players choose to shoot first if they want. But of course gankers don’t want players to have the ability to engage them freely as a consequence for their criminal actions.
They cannot bring unlimited more Catalysts, because that requires unlimited more Omega Accounts and Security Tags. Stop acting as if people would show up with 20 chars just to tank a Retriever, if said Retriever would organize help from his corp that could deflect a 5 man gank. They won’t. They go look for easier targets instead. So don’t be an easy target.
And even then, you can trap them. Every now and then I’ll feed them a bait. My PR is 54 Catalysts jumping on my “Ratter”, expecting glorious loot. In the end they all turned into wrecks and I collected masses in Neutron Blasters. I even was so impudent to drop an MTU while their scout sat and watched and could do nothing since all their 54 chars were on timer. It was a lot of fun.
Just don’t be stupid and gankers are absolutely no danger. The first step would be to actually learn how ganks work, how they operate and what the weakspots are. And then simply use the mechanics against them.
No it does not. It completely neuters every aggressive ship. There is, flat out, zero reason to attack anybody in highsec if you have to be completely immobile and your sensors are useless.
Yes, it does make it very expensive to show up on grid and be useless. Those goals are achieved by making this module necessary. I just think that is also really, really, dumb. Hardly an elegant solution.
Stop acting as if people would show up with 20 chars just to tank a Retriever, if said Retriever would organize help from his corp that could deflect a 5 man gank. They won’t. They go look for easier targets instead.
I’m not acting like anything as these situations are happening, there is the data.. Sure it’s not 20 on a retriever, but it’s not uncommon for 10.
These situations ARE happening today and there’s precedence they would just bring more catalysts, so I’m not acting like anything.
And even then, you can trap them. Every now and then I’ll feed them a bait. My PR is 54 Catalysts jumping on my “Ratter”, expecting glorious loot. In the end they all turned into wrecks and I collected masses in Neutron Blasters.
Good I am glad you have found ways, that alone gives me hope that this module would level the playing field more.
Just don’t be stupid and gankers are absolutely no danger. The first step would be to actually learn how ganks work, how they operate and what the weakspots are. And then simply use the mechanics against them.
There is no in-game tutorial, no real public data on it. Start a blog and maybe that will help.
No it does not. It completely neuters every aggressive ship. There is, flat out, zero reason to attack anybody in highsec if you have to be completely immobile and your sensors are useless.
You’re already effectively immobile when you’re on grid, you pick a spot and you gank, then you die.
Then adjust the hit to sensors, the point is to reduce the time to kill window to favor larger groups working together to execute.
Yes, it does make it very expensive to show up on grid and be useless. Those goals are achieved by making this module necessary. I just think that is also really, really, dumb. Hardly an elegant solution.
You’re not useless, if you need to make a choice and swap ganking ships from blasters to rails because you screwed up your warp in before and want some range flexibility. And to note, this is only when you ACTUALLY push the button to go red. If you push it to early like you would in bastion that’s a skill issue and it effectively hampers multiboxing gankers.
All of these things are how you would adapt with a module like this implemented, no copy paste the same catalyst in mass numbers. Rest of all your complaints about it amount to skill issues
Again, your links only show stupid miners who absolutely served their gank-magnets to be shredded or nothing at all. A handful of rare cases, absolutely nothing to worry about for the average casual player. Don’t fit 4B deadspace modules on a barge and they most likely won’t come with 27 catalysts to gank you. Problem solved.
What? No public data? Do you live under a rock? This topic was chewed back and forth countless times alone here at the forums. Guidelines have been posted countless times. Every good corp mentor can tell you what to do to prevent being ganked. Ask him.
And for all those newbros who don’t have a corp: A successful gank on them is a warning, a lesson and an opportunity to grow up, looking for allies, working together as part of a group to ensure each others protection. It’s a big hint that in EVE cooperation is rewarded and people should utilize that.
But I assume ppl today can’t see a fall as an opportunity to rise any more… sad.
I have no experience as HS ganker, but your examples remind me of a kill I once made:
I caught a t1 Vexor in my Deluge and dropped 18 people in bombers, blops and T3Cs on it.
Overkill?
Not really: the Vexor was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and we came across it on our route to kill a Carrier one of us spotted (which happened a couple of minutes later).
Moral of the story?
Sometimes they didn’t bring an entire fleet to kill you, but you just happened to be an easy target of opportunity that didn’t pay attention.
Realize that no amount of tank and/or nerfs will keep your barge safe and instead pay attention.
Again, your links only show stupid miners who absolutely served their gank-magnets to be shredded or nothing at all
No, my links show that gankers have and will continue to “just bring more catalysts”. You need to come up with something better when there are 100s of cases of it right in front of you. Atm your only logic has been If you were ganked, you are a stupid miner. Applying this logic to everything is moot, because I doubt you’re a stupid PVE’er Legion | Syzygium | Killmail | zKillboard. But then there is this.
Quite frankly, this is the second time, take a deep breath and just take the L.
And for all those newbros who don’t have a corp: A successful gank on them is a warning, a lesson and an opportunity to grow up, looking for allies, working together as part of a group to ensure each others protection. It’s a big hint that in EVE cooperation is rewarded and people should utilize that.
But I assume ppl today can’t see a fall as an opportunity to rise any more… sad.
Sure and I don’t want that to go away, I just don’t want a bunch of cheap AF destroyers running rampant blowing up anything they want to go away and you can’t reship and chase them down to blow them up to “secure” your space because they’re actively circumventing the mechanics around it.
You are hunting in space in which you are free to be shot at with no consequences for defending
Someone can physically stop you before you do this,
In a space where there is inherit accurate intel (Not blue, near guaranteed danger!)
You are playing with a bunch of friends and it required far more isk for you to risk to actually kill it, and fast, to ensure you’re good.
Moral of the story?
Sometimes they didn’t bring an entire fleet to kill you, but you just happened to be an easy target of opportunity that didn’t pay attention.
Realize that no amount of tank and/or nerfs will keep your barge safe and instead pay attention.
All i’m saying is that the risk vs reward is a lot more balanced here than it is in high sec ganking. This isn’t about keeping your barge safe, nothing about this module inheritly prevents you from killing a barge, just that it makes it more costly to do so. This is about:
The cost balance.
Giving the ability to adequately defend yourself much like in all other parts of space.
Yeah, happens if you have a disconnect, so what? At least I wasn’t ganked in HS while not paying attention, right?
They can’t blow up anything they want. They can only blow up anything they can catch and actually destroy. Which isn’t a lot, because 99% of all people doing stuff all day long in HS are not ganked.
Yeah, happens if you have a disconnect, so what? At least I wasn’t ganked in HS while not paying attention, right?
Ahuh, sure
They can’t blow up anything they want. They can only blow up anything they can catch and actually destroy. Which isn’t a lot, because 99% of all people doing stuff all day long in HS are not ganked.
First time someone in this thread has offered any shred of a path forward to reacting to a gank as it’s happening. But yet, you’re still stuck if you’re alpha’d, you have no chance to actively react even if you’re paying the utmost attention. Point of the proposed module is to:
I would bet in an attempt to avoid getting ganked by larger ships.
” kicking and screaming.