They punished people for ratting in the areas they live in and I can absolutely understand that this does not work. When I log in and see the system modfier at 50% I can either decide to move or to just log out. And many people logged out.
Thats entirely different than offering a reward, which is what they will do now: leaving 100% as floor in all system and offer bonus to more risky systems. And I believe getting a discount on tax and fees is a nice carrot, especially for industrialists who plan to sell a lot of stuff.
Then these edges would become pretty crowded and you will find less Ore, Ice and Anos there because you will have much more challengers trying to be quicker than you are. Also since they are there already at some progress on the route to Jita, most of the systems they act in will be 0.5/0.6 which increases the risk of having their Industry operations disturbed by gankers.
The issue is that they made it a nerf to NS ratting, and fixed it as a boost recently.
The difference is that making it a nerf makes HS or abyssal farming more interesting, while making it a boost makes NS more interesting.
If there are LS and NS only items, then the important route is the JF one. The most important place is the one that links the highest number of systems under a given JF price (that is basically, number of jumps)
If you want to force the spread of sales, you must force the spread of JF optimal places. How to do that is not my knowledge though. Also it may have unconsidered effects.
I believe doubling the JF cargo, the JF fuel bay, and the JF fuel consumption per AU could be a start. With other things like reduction in fuell components drop (less from ice ? need to think about it)
Sure, but then having taxes fly up in regions that get a lot of trade is also a nerf to trade. Unless they are going to half the current tax then set the current tax as the cap, it would be a nerf.
I just don’t think this is possible. I don’t think you can force people to spread markets.
If you wanted to encourage people to spread markets then there should be benefits to seeding items in markets with limited stock. Though importantly for any realistic seeding to sparse markets CCP need to scrap the order modification broker fee if you aren’t actively trying to change the price. Sparse markets require long-lived orders and as a stands you will lose a percentage of your margin every 90 days when you are forced to refresh orders.
In my view, maximum order length should be reduced to 30 days but a “refresh order” button should be added for any order with less than 7 days remaining that resets it back to the 30 for free. This would stop stale orders cluttering up the market while allowing people to seed items indefinitely with a single broker fee as long as they aren’t trying to change prices (such as 0.01 ISK undercutting, which is what that broker fee was added to prevent).
To then encourage people to seed markets, I would then reduce broker fees for items where there is less than X amount within a range. So for example let’s say a Megathron, if you stock in a station where there are less than 5 available within 5 jumps, your initial broker fee is halved.
lemme give you a perspective of a small producer as to why some of us might have bailed the industry ship.
I quit market and industry gameplay after CCP’s huge FU patch that imposed predatory fees and taxes upon us, traders and producers, which ate up our profits in a mostly unpredictable manner. Basically no way to relist items? Nope.
I was producing from 9 T2 BPOs, mostly modules. + inventing some capital mods, jump freighters. But since CCP hated us so much and made our lives to hell, somebody else gotta do it, I’m back to shooting NPC for ISK.
CCP put traders into the same bag as botters, exploiters etc., in a clear move to turn the rest of the community against them, and also went and implemented the relisting fee changes stating it would combat bot-like use of the market.
Industrialists and other people who did not have the patience tp play the PvP market game rejoiced at how they would finally be able to sell stuff without having some traders immediately update their orders to sit above theirs.
Obviously none of that worked because the relist fees ensured only the people with more patience would remain in the market/trading business. Everyone else would lose even more money dumping their items. Right now, getting outbidded will cost industrialists and non-trading types even more money to go back to the top. They could always not do that, but that would lead them to no-sales.
They could also list items at much lower prices to liquidate them as fast as possible, but that leads to lower profits. That still works (I’ve done with fuel blocks) but obviously you need to sell in bulk and the turnover needs to justify it. So items with lower turnover are a no-go.
Potential relisting fees have also made it so that orders are now smaller - there far less units per order than before. For example Im sitting on over 500 units of a T2 rig, and Im selling them in orders of 5 units. Only when one order is fully sold, I put another one up with 5 units.
Why would I list 500 units and pay the relist fee if someone outbids me with just 5 units?
All this stuff was predicted and mentioned by the community but CCP obviously chose to not listen. Unfortunately I guess all this has caused many players to stop playing the market altogether, or reduce their involvement, which in turn leads it to be understocked. Many players will build for their Alliance / Corp and never go to the market again.
I doubt there will be any market revitalisation unless CCP backtracks on their changes, which won’t happen.
Considering how many of the pro-griefing crowd are also totally fine with P2W microtransactions, I get the impression that most of them want the player run market and industry gone anyway. They just want people farming PvE that they can then farm with arena PvP on the side for when there’s no easy targets to crush.
JFs are part of the problem. Thanks to them it is so easy to move everything to single trade hub no matter how far is it.,
Nonsense. Everything I put on Jita market sold eventually without relisting. In some cases it took a really long time - month+, but it sold.
So if you put something at market and it didn’t sell in 3 months, then:
your price was unrealistic for the item you were selling
you were selling something for which there is very small demand
I don’t understand this. Station traders were boasting of having trillions and then suddenly when CCP add relist fee they all claim its not profitable anymore and quit? Something is fishy here…
Nonsese again. -1 ISK relisting was almost exclusively case of Jita. Jita didn’t become understocked with this change.
All you have to do to adapt to the relist fee is not to sell all your stock in one batch, but divide it into smaller parts and sell one by one at the time. If you build 50 JFs and dump them all at market then it is obvious you won’t sell them. You are making more than there is demand for and by that amount everyone else building them will undercut you, if you sold say 3 then some of the producers would consider wait for yours to sell and sell their at higher price. But the main problem is that you are building more than there is demand for. Unfortunately Jfs are rarely ganked. With no destruction, there won’t be demand.
No you don’t. Alternative is simply quitting and moving on, like most of the industrialists evidently did.
Even looking into the abyss of empty markets, there is still some idiot who’ll defend the mechanics that were responsible for the mass exodus of traders stocking them.
like always there is no single cause for anything, but a sum of key contributing factors leading up to a disaster.
I’m telling you I did quit industry over this garbage, so many others judging by this thread.
Here’s my whine thread from 2y ago:
if you can’t offload the stuff you manufator, you simply don’t do it anymore.
Market babysitting and 0.01 isking was the only way to get rid of huge batches of items within a reasonable time. Nobody in his sane mind is gonna break them down in small batches and put these up, the number of slots is very limited, so is your time.
While my Industry went in the bin with the changes to requirements, I only got richer with the Market changes and found it far far easier to sell at a profit.
I have no idea what all these “veteran traders” find so hard about shifting wares atm.
veteran traders relied upon fresh blood of 0.01isking moaners, to take over and carry the torch… yet here we are 2y later, in a thread about empty markets pahahaha
Whether you agree or not it’s an undeniable fact that the relist changes have directly led to understocking various markets. I know because I shut down 4 of my markets because the effort involved in stocking lesser used markets outweighed the reward.
When I could just stick a whole bunch of stock on there then just come back ever 80 days or so and change all the prices to refresh the order, it was easy enough to keep things constantly stocked but it’s basically impossible to predict demand in sporadically used markets and it’s not prohibitively expensive to keep paying massive relist fees on large orders, so it’s better to just sell in a bigger hub.
Oh and FYI, there absolutely have been stock issues in Jita.
I am small trader so those ~180 orders I have on both my trading chars (ie. 360) are more than enough for me, but ok I guess if you are indy player you must be building and selling hundreds different items at once.
However I don’t understand the time comment. You now argument that you don’t have time to sell it by batches, say one bach today, second tomorrow and last batch day after tomorrow, but on the same hand you admit you were -1 ISK relisting for hours when it was possible and want that back. Something doesn’t add up.
with 0.01 isking I was able to sell off my stuff within days, being active paid off.
Managing small batches on the other hand, trying to undercut competition with dozens of stacks of same item type, possibly feeding them one by one, is a lot more of a time intensive endeavor. Not even close of a chance to sell my stuff timely within a month before next freighter load was due to arrive.
Building from BPO gave you a stack of roughly thousand items of a type, per print (2500 for armor hardeners, 800 for large guns, 1150 for medium guns). When I did a lot of module invention, it wasn’t just 50 items either. It was hundreds to thousands, to make it worthwhile. Do your math how much of a hassle that is, selling them in small batches and you might understand how industrialists were turned off and driven out by such shitty market mechanics.
Just speculating here, but what if each location individually had it’s own first 30 (number plucked at random) sales slots not count towards your total sales slots. So listing 50 items at station A drops your slots total by 20, listing another 50 items at station B drops you again by 20 - so 40 total, not 100 as it is currently.
Would this give the markets a push towards reseeding & generating more footfall, in a positive spiral?
This way the problems with the big runs, that are needed to be economically viable, could be mitigated by selling them as smaller batches across a number of locations, but without running out of slots immediately. Would it help with several problems?