At the end, what is Eve?
Sandbox game ?
Griefing game ?
It can not be both, no metter how much Hillmar and falcon bend relity 
Faylee
Youâre advocating a âno changeâ approach to the future of EVE. Since that appears to have caused the number of players to fall steadily for some time, itâs not persuasive in a thread entitled âHow to get more people to play EVEâ.
Itâs obvious those who are currently getting exactly want they want from EVE are not in tested in change. A single one-line post per player would suffice.
It is a sandbox game that allows relatively unrestricted player interaction. There are rules of course, but your definition of griefing might just be my definition of overcoming hardship or unlikely odds.
Why did you just impale yourself?
Yes I lock my door when I leave, but thatâs because thereâs statistics that show how many homes in my area are broken into. Locks only keep honest people out. If a thief wants into your home they will find a way.
What are statistics showing about player retention and subs?
Or are you saying that noobs will get griefed out of the game because a player who really wants to is going to find a way âso donât bother to lock the doorâ?
Your own points stand against themselves.
CCP should Advertise like âWorld Of Tanksâ and make a really nice Commercial for TV.
Yes that is possible just like Iron Water 
CCPs data show that new players are more likely to keep playing if they suffer a loss in their first 30 days.
CCPs data shows that new player retention is negatively effected upon receiving a Wardec. The actual cause in my opinion is debatable.
CCPs data shows that new players werenât specifically targeted by wars.
Overall I would say that conflict is good. I donât believe Iâve impaled myself because I donât believe your correlation between real life and how people act in a video game is of any importance.
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Even ccp no longer believes in that âconstructionâ âŚ
I havenât read any official statement on that. The only point that I agree with you on is that their development lately has included that players that wish to stay safer, can do so.
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The strongest aspect of the game that they have going for them is the addictive nature of the game, like Iâve said before. At least in my opinion, which is backed by at least a few scholarly papers researching exactly how to make games so addictive that you will continue to play.
The alpha time is meant to get you invested in the game, not necessarily buying plex with real money, though they love it when alphas do, Iâm sure, but in you, the player, creating what feels, to you, like an obligation to continue. âIâve spent so much time on this - to fail now would mean I wasted itâŚâ
The desire to not appear foolish is a strong one, it engages your âfight or flightâ response, and the first thing that happens in that case is a virtual shutdown of the part of your brain thatâs responsible for making rational decisions, tamping down impulse, and it highly stimulates the part that is all impulse.
This happens to greater or lesser degrees based upon your personal level of fear of being foolish, or appearing so to others. If you donât have that fear, then it wonât affect you at all, of course, but most humans do have that fear - for many in first world living conditions, itâs one of the most real fears, since they donât have to fear anything else like being homeless, starving, being killed at random in a village market over a choice pear, etc, etcâŚ
I donât think eve has a problem getting new players - they have a problem keeping them if the players leave before devoting significant amounts of time into it.
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That is the problem with discussing with randoms on the internet. No references used to support ones argument, instead itâs just a group of people screaming into the void, convinced their opinion is the reality.
LSG and Balos, for example, both are convinced that a sandbox MMO, that is fundamentally based in PvP, is an outdated game model. They are convinced that modern MMOs always have to include a complete safe space or PvP/PvE has to be clearly seperated, in order to appeal to modern gamers. Yet, I am still waiting for them to reference anything that supports that notion.
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Faylee
Please read the first paragraph of this link:
â https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation â
CCP should read it too of course, but none of their representatives are posting here 
And maybe these two as well (note - itâs two small, consecutive sections on the same page):
â https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)#Shifting_the_burden_of_proof â
â https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)#Proving_a_negative â
Same old arguments. Arguments that your kind of brigaded in forums for years, and now we see threads about changing for the future, if not survival, of the game.
If your way was the best way, would we be having this conversation?
Tell me about this all holy âlossâ you speak of. I have a member in my corp who was a 3 day noob when he joined for the first time. I gave him lots of stuff and pointed too all of the good material on PVP tactics and fittings. I think this was some kid from northern Europe. After a few days he was taking PVP fits to lowsec and having brawls. He was using the same tactics and fittings as seen in countless videos and articles that I ensured he had.
And losing.
I told him âeverybody loses while they are learning. Keep studying the logs for damage and damage taken and remember what you did and eventually you improve.â I also gave him much credit for jumping in so soon.
After a couple of weeks, nothing. No convo, never logged in again. To this day. Still in corp. Iâm a slob for not cleaning up.
He had âlossâ. Wonder what could have happened?
So itâs not magical.
I think thereâs a huge difference in losses. Imagine if you will, a storm knocked down your home. That would suck, wouldnât it? All your stuff getting blown about, if not destroyed. Maybe family or community would help you. It would take time to rebuild.
Now imagine if some local punks decided to trash the place, cover the walls in graffiti of rather explicit nature, pee up and down the walls, knock out the windows, clog the bowl, etc.
How would that feel?
Now you are going to hurf and blurf about real world and all that. It looks as transparent as people who âhate civilizationâ and pushing pron turning around and saying âFree speech!â. You want to say itâs all about a game when itâs a game in a real world with real people who are going to react to things like real people do. A complete disconnect from the idea of consequences and some level of cogdis. You canât have it both ways. Nobody ever does.
If this magical all high holy âlossâ you find so precious to player retention, from âCCP dataâ when apparently CCP has made mistakes in the past and this is one of them, is your kind of loss induced by player vibrancy, you are deluded. If you want to complain that some noob loses his first battleship in a mission and quits, then I would agree with you on that. But that would have more to do with the NPE than the concept of loss. Advertisement is also a factor. If the Eve banner ads were all about âfly your own battleship to victory!â then all the new players getting into a BS and finding out what their weaknesses are, regardless of how they find out, will probably quit the game after losing it.
So stop with that âCCP data showsâŚâ crap. We see through it, and the people using it in their arguments.
Itâs hard to say whether a correlation like that is cause or effect. One viable interpretation is that new players who are fairly committed to trying the game out are more likely to experience a loss than those who are not as committed. So the the loss in that case would be an effect, not a cause.
Iâm just one data point, but I recall losing at least two ships to PVP during my first month of playing. I did not enjoy either of those fights as it felt like other players were trying to deny me access to parts of the EVE game experience (both encounters were gatecamps), but I enjoyed enough of the rest of the game that I persisted. Eventually I figured out what mistakes I had made in those situations and was able to avoid them with much more success.
Those losses did not motivate me to play the game, so the relationship was not causal for my continued play. Rather I continued to play because I was enjoying the PVE parts of the game at that point, and because I do not usually give up easily on anything that I do in life.
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I think a large part of it has to do with CCP trying to entice a casual and less nvested player to play a game that harbors a harsh environment with a steep learning curve.
I am not alone surely⌠I started playing in 2012 and have loved every bit of the challenge. Iâve had my fair share of hard learned lessons. I wonder why I kept playing? Was it because CCP made it easy for me? People are all different. Some like challenge, while others would prefer to not be challenged which is exactly why we have difficulty settings for multiplayer games.
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I played since 2006 and remember a day when âpiratesâ would gank a noob then tell the noob what he did wrong, give him some ISK, and if the noob wanted some Yarr, look them up.
2012âŚ
See if you can find the great âPirate storiesâ threads of olde. These stories go back to around 2007 but there were several large threads of this. And they span years. You will notice something.
What you will see is that in the days of olde when the game was growing, âpiracyâ and ganking was a thing for sure. But the victims had it coming in a ways. They were gaming, and getting gamed back. So you have tales of bowhards, tryhards, really ambitious types, and pirates or those who would be the white knights all in a mix fighting it out. Capers, ambushes, scams, theft, ganks, drops⌠you name it. A good time was had by all.
And the stories will evolve.
In the end the stories will be all about âwe let this new guy join corp and then after robbing him, we tricked him into lowsec, blew up his ship, scrammed his pod so he could not get away, and kept him there for an hour! LOL! He never logged in against after that! LoL WESOLEETHEADSHOT!!!â
And then the Free Wrecks channel lobbied for âblue wrecksâ and an entire alliance had a tantrum. You know the rest.
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Thatâs entirely true. Iâm a completely NON-dedicated, casual player. I rarely have to spend real money on plex anymore, since I hardly ever lose a ship now that Iâve had enough messed up toons to figure out how to get exactly what I want from this game, pve-wise, anyway, with no wasted skills or activities that I donât want to do.
The tengu, for me, at least, is the answer, along with auto-targeting missiles that let me basically have disposable âdronesâ without investing in drones like my other toon did. I got so sick and tired of babysitting and replacing those things.
At heart, I am extremely lazy. I go into the mission, fire a single regular missile to grab aggro, then reload with auto-targeting and read or whatever until I hear âthe module has run out of charges,â or my shield alarm going off, telling me to start the booster.
When I tire of that, I change out a few subsystems and play exploration. I finally figured out the perfect, cheapest method for me to get exactly what I want from the environment. Itâs the players that irritate me, with their gate-camps and overwhelming numbers. How much effort does it really take for 12 vets to sit on a gate and bubble it, then pew-pew whatever comes through?
Their only real challenge will be a fleet as big as theirs, or larger, jumping through. That happens, and Iâve seen it, but only rarely. Mostly itâs just chicken-hawking the people that are really playing the game. Iâm exerting more effort at playing, than they are, because Iâm actually traveling around, looking for things, no? From a certain perspective, thatâs true. Theyâre like trapdoor spiders just sitting there all day, waiting for food to fall into its burrow.
Now, tell me why Iâm wrong?
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I canât say or account for everyone else that shares my profession or preferred playstyle, but I do my part to educate other players that Iâve killed or scammed.
I will admit that Iâm more apt to do so when they take the game in stride and have a good attitude. Most of the time my convo requests and mails are replied to with hostility which is fine, I understand that. You just canât be close-minded and ignorant while expecting someone to throw you a bone.
No youâre not wrong. Thereâs varying levels of effort involved in what different people do. Gatecamping is generally low-effort. Iâm not saying that their gameplay is superior than yours. I equally discourage anyone that puts in minimal effort into playing the game, but then wants to complain or petition CCP to further enable this behavior.
For me, actively hunting and pursuing is infinitely more fun than watching traffic come through a gate.
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So they have to prove to you that they liked what you did to them.
To expect such a thing from a competitor is a bigger insult than actually defeating or besting them. Then you deem them closed-minded and ignorant?
And maybe those people are the ones who, in getting so worked up, were more apt to care about the game than someone who just shrugs and moves on?
But you may have managed little more than make them decide âhey I donât have to put up with people like thisâ.
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