How to get more people to play eve

[Elena_Laskova]

Note: Edited to remove an inaccurate reference.
:
:
highSec is many environments, not one.

• In one, players from all over EVE commute to trade. This works adequately, but not well.
• In another, commercial freight carriers in very large ships move goods between trade hubs and the rest of EVE. This works reasonably well, but exposes some stupid and unnecessary design flaws in EVE PvP. And not just to vets- it harms CCPs technical reputation among new players
• In one of those environments, new players try to get established in EVE. That environment is an abject failure.
• In another, there are players who want to PvE, but don’t care for EVE’s “unlimited free fire” PvP. This is also a failure, and it exposes another serious weakness of EVE (and hence CCP) to new players.
• … there are, of course, many more …

Two points:

• Nothing in highSec can be reasonably compared to the nullSec “black hole” that’s diminishing EVE’s quality as a game. Lessons from one can only indirectly be applied to the other
• Both (IMO) are “broken” at the moment, but in different ways, and for different reasons

[Hun_Tra]

I don’t understand how you guys can spend so many hours arguing if EVE is PVP or PVE.

Even PVP fights can turn into PVE when diamond pirate NPC’s start healing your enemy, if they have high enough standings.

If we really have to stick with terms like PVE and PVP, then EVE, in my holy opinion, is PvEvP. In short, Everyone V Everyone.

Edit: My point is that these two, PVE and PVP, are in constant state of flux. They may intertwine, meld, or be separate, depending on situation. This is unlike many other MMO’s out there.

So… EVE.

I remember when I was a lil noobie back in 2010 or so and I asked where the name EVE comes from. People told me that nobody knows, but they like to think it’s everyone vs everyone. That’s how I see EVE even today, and I don’t really see any reason to push away from that, but instead building on it.

Now to actually contribute this thread, instead of fighting over terminology, I think FW would be the excellent gateway for getting new players to stay. If player can’t find a corp/alliance to hang out with, they should be told about FW and how they can find a family there, at least partially if not permanently. This gives the newbie bigger sense of belonging (which, in my experiences, is one big thing that hooks people) and gives them also goals.

Of course, FW needs some serious attention and tweaking to better before we push newbros to join it. But it’s just one of the many things, especially for those more combat oriented players. You can’t please everyone, but the newbies who hear about fights in EVE could possibly get what they want through FW.

[Olmeca_Gold]

@March_rabbit

It is funny but for me this sounds like CCP should do anything in their power to keep these IMPORTANT Rorqual pilots subbed and in game while basically ignoring needs of others “100 people” you have mentioned. Because this way they will keep 101 player in the game while caring about 1.

Nah. Many of these 100 people already left because CCP catered to the Rorqual. The Rorqual pilot got his 15th Rorqual, but the game slowed down because of that inorganic and unsustainable growth.

Under all conditions, there is already motivation for Rorquals to mine (money). But if you make it safer and safer you remove the motivation of hunting them, hence eliminating many players from the game.

[Olmeca_Gold]

@Elena_Laskova

I liked your earlier long post about the harm the nullSec status quo is doing to EVE. But I think it’s a major error to project that onto highSec.

I literally made no claims about hisec. Anything I say was about the extreme safety of some nullsec environments. Sorry if it looked like otherwise.

[Traco_Miritu]

@Hun_Tra

Even PVP fights can turn into PVE when diamond pirate NPC’s start healing your enemy, if they have high enough standings.

PVP with npc interference is still PVP…
How do you come to the almost borderline to be named idea that PVP magically turns into PVE just because npc’s are involved?

[Traco_Miritu]

@Olmeca_Gold

Nah. Many of these 100 people already left because CCP catered to the Rorqual. The Rorqual pilot got his 15th Rorqual, but the game slowed down because of that inorganic and unsustainable growth.

Under all conditions, there is already motivation for Rorquals to mine (money). But if you make it safer and safer you remove the motivation of hunting them, hence eliminating many players from the game.

So WHY did these people leave and how does this correspond with the claim of pvp that the player loss we archive are just dissapointed PVP players that find the game already too easy and “not eve anymore” beside the fact that ccp just had BEGUN to change the course of the game into the right direction?

Your post does not fit into those claims…

[Traco_Miritu]

@Olmeca_Gold

I literally made no claims about hisec. Anything I say was about the extreme safety of some nullsec environments. Sorry if it looked like otherwise.

And again…the problem with safety is that you do not like it?

Well many others do…it’s simply the most relevant playsytle these days,like it or not…

[Elena_Laskova]

@Olmeca_Gold

I literally made no claims about hisec. Anything I say was about the extreme safety of some nullsec environments. Sorry if it looked like otherwise.

Maybe projecting a little myself

Doesn’t look like any harm was done to the discussion though, and I’m happy enough with my post as a standalone. I’ll go back and remove the reference to yours.

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@March_rabbit

Instead we got new generation of freeloaders demanding more for free while not providing any weight to the game.

If the problems existed before, and still exist now, then obviously paywalls didn’t solve anything.

Please do provide all the data you have collected on how much ‘weight’ Alpha accounts have provided to the game, or the lack thereof. Logins have stabilized and stopped the rapid decline they were experiencing from 2013/14 through to 2016, is the only public data I have access to.

I would like to see this economic data you apparently have access to.

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@Olmeca_Gold

CCP now realized this won’t work long term and are trying to take some of it back (e.g. Rorqual nerfs). Basically they need to give up the idea that null mega empire krabbing, and the belonging people feel to play with corpmates etc., is the lifeblood of Eve ecosystem and their revenues. The lifeblood and the thing that keeps people playing Eve for last 15 years is explosions, wars, fighting, and all kinds of stories emerge from these. Those are the actual aspects that gives Eve it’s niche. So they need to change game mechanics toward a less safe, more dangerous, but vibrant Eve with many wars and conflicts. There are lots of ways to make such changes. But some of you will have to give up your ability to Rorqual mine with 15 Rorquals under extremely safe and riskless conditions for all that to work.

1,000 times this.

To me, it has seemed that CCP has always been willing to sacrifice long-term game design goals for short-term profits or reaction to player revolts. It is hard to tell if this is simply because they do not understand game design, or they have no long-term plan that they care about damaging, or perhaps they simply (like many businesses) only focus on producing good numbers for the next quarter and to heck with anything else.

At some point CCP needs to be prepared to take the game in the direction that restores it to something interesting to play, rather than the current “exploit the hell out of the mechanics until we’re all rolling in so much resources we never need to fight, pay or even play for the next 3 years”.

[Olmeca_Gold]

@Traco_Miritu

So WHY did these people leave and how does this correspond with the claim of pvp that the player loss we archive are just dissapointed PVP players that find the game already too easy and “not eve anymore” beside the fact that ccp just had BEGUN to change the course of the game into the right direction?

Your post does not fit into those claims…

Idk what you mean here. I said CCP catered to PvE players last 3 years. Many PvP players left in response. And now CCP are turning back toward the right direction. Where is the contradiction?

[Olmeca_Gold]

@Traco_Miritu

And again…the problem with safety is that you do not like it?

Well many others do…it’s simply the most relevant playsytle these days,like it or not…

I already explained to you what was wrong about extremely safe conditions in nullsec in a prior post.

[Taloris_Aldercain]

@Traco_Miritu

Well many others do…it’s simply the most relevant playsytle these days,like it or not…

That would be the currently glorified king of the hill game mode I’m afraid.

Also still no clarification or attempt at clarification on my wall of text, so I’ll summarize.

• What exactly do you mean by “copy what’s successful” when that’s been proven to be a bad approach.

• People are fine with PvP in the game being in high security space, it’s moreso the fact they would prefer “fair” PvP, thus don’t leave highsec. Those that leave do so for reasons unrelated to PvP.

[Traco_Miritu]

@Olmeca_Gold

Idk what you mean here. I said CCP catered to PvE players last 3 years. Many PvP players left in response. And now CCP are turning back toward the right direction. Where is the contradiction?

This “centering” is not even close to be in balance…much more has to come which means more ragequits ,more casual gameplay and more casual players joining…i see no loss here…

[Traco_Miritu]

@Taloris_Aldercain

What exactly do you mean by “copy what’s successful” when that’s been proven to be a bad approach.

PVP just in concealed ares as an example…a place that you actually have to enter WILLINGLY (low in case of eve)

@Taloris_Aldercain

People are fine with PvP in the game being in high security space, it’s moreso the fact they would prefer “fair” PvP, thus don’t leave highsec. Those that leave do so for reasons unrelated to PvP.

Who are those “people” if even pure PVP’ers leave the game?
Who asked them and how was the question formulated?
Or are you just repeating the quotes that were spread here for over 15 years to protect PVP from beeing touched by the reality of a changing mmog market?

[March_rabbit]

Usually we say “adapt or die”.
Hunting rorquals becomes harder/more boring/etc… => find another thing in the game and have fun.

Why these hunters are unable to adapt? If you have 2 fleets of “rorqual hunters” you already have 2 fleets of pvp-minded players. Just fight each other! In theory it should be more interesting and fun that fighting “bots” like many claim.

Note: yes, i know, many claim that they “hunt” rorquals to play with defending fleets. But still this is only one of many ways to get pvp.

[Traco_Miritu]

@Olmeca_Gold

I already explained to you what was wrong about extremely safe conditions in nullsec in a prior post.

No you just repeated the “no” and “this will not work” and “we did it like this for 15 years now” phrases and claims that are really stepping on my nerves for some time now…this is -sry- BS…

The game and its players(at least the reasonable ones) will adapt to this change but all that comes from the PVP fraction are those what i call “armageddon talks” which claim the end of eve if THEIR playstyle is even touched lightly…

I mean every clear minded person has to see the BS factor in a claim like this but they don’t even think about it twice…

They are CONVINCED that the game better has to die than touched and they mean it…look at previous older post…they actually SAID things like this…

I don’t know about you but ime this is bad and we should get rid of opinions like this…as hard as this may sound…

[Taloris_Aldercain]

@Traco_Miritu

PVP just in concealed ares as an example…a place that you actually have to enter WILLINGLY (low in case of eve)

So standard PvE server design? Why would someone continue to play EVE in that instance when you have more modern games designed the exact same way? What would make it unique enough to have someone try the game?

@Traco_Miritu

Who are those “people” if even pure PVP’ers leave the game?
Who asked them and how was the question formulated?

To save space in the reply, I’ll link to the post that indicates the “who”.

@Traco_Miritu

I don’t know about you but ime this is bad and we should get rid of opinions like this…as hard as this may sound…

Realistically any drastic change to the overall game would be better off as a standalone game. It gets to a point where the time it would take to rewrite large parts of a game would cost more than just recreating it from scratch, so you’re left with the decision to either stop support for the old and work with the new or continue to pile updates and messy fixes on top of something that’s been falling apart behind the door.

[Lugburz]

@Olmeca_Gold

If you are a null mega empire member who likes their friends extreme capability to save him under distress, it is hard to understand why safety in nullsec is wrong. But it is.

It also directly effects recruitment and therefore competition; everyone right now knows the safest place to mine for example is delve and i will bet money delve alliances have had an influx of recruits in the past year or so - playing accounts not quite newbros like horde get.
Horde have people join daily because theres no check, you can join today - within 30 minutes your accepted and you can be floating around in a blob shooting stuff and exploding… its also a very toxic way to have people join eve as its far from perfect for every player yet people often tell newbros to ‘join horde’ for pvp.
And many leave because its not quite what they expected.
And then there are groups like snuffed (and a myriad of other corps) that join the imperium for a limited time just to get cheap supers/titans… or TEST who look like they will get help from goons whenever theyre not fighting an easy target… and so on.

Personally i think this is all rather messy and whilst i agree it should be allowed i also feel far too many people are abusing it to avoid content rather than create it.

[Lugburz]

@Taloris_Aldercain

recreating it from scratch

That thought had crossed my mind of late, to create a ‘second’ eve, call it exodus or some such and have the mechanics work differently somehow; i mean technically it could be done by using abyssal space but meh; i think im done with this subject, if ccp want everything to go for the nullblocs and they want these fools to be earning 20 billion a month esily and risk free then well, that is what they have.