I regret to inform that we still don't die enough

Yes but is he calmed down yet?
Seriously though, not my cup of tea, I don’t understand how mining in a computer game can be so exciting as to have ledgers and invest so much time in it. I can understand it may be serious business for those who PLEX their account and it’s personal choice to use their time as they wish, but it’s simply not for me, not in a video game.

Well, lots of alleged people claim they do it for fun or to relax.

However, I can understand their interest (that we have manufactured without supporting evidence here) in the Mining Ledger as my most exciting moment in my last month playing EvE was watching Orca prices fall on a graph and acting… By pressing “buy”.

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I can only respond to the post title, since it’s not coherent to address 5 hundred posts.

No, I clearly don’t. And the times I did, most of them were to afk behavior during missions.

And while I have no problem admitting it, it’s not my fault CCP is too ‘busy’ (pay attention how benevolent I’m using that word) with stuff instead of making PvP fun and meaningful.

Let’s contemplate for a second is half the effort spent nerfing / buffing / whatever / trigayvians were spent fixing the classic / bullet-proof / proven / half-assed idea of battleground aka ‘faction wars or warfare’.

Because, we can only contemplate…

There’s a misconception of asset accumulation, people are not accumulating because they going in an all out war anytime soon (I’m talking about average Joe), but because they want to play EVE and EVE is giving them a hard time with any meaningful activity to spent time with. So they put themselves in this ‘second job’ position and move forward causing themselves pain and frustration.

We don’t die enough because we don’t care!

Making super NPCs did not work and nerfing shields/armor hards neither, let’s not talk about the joke WCS was, lol, nice nerf, it just made 90% of people (figure of speech, I took this info outta blue) to finally throw that crap out.

But feel free to keep nerfing stuff, it’s your game after all.

o7

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Yes, this was the notion I made a thread about many months ago - the economy isn’t broken, and people aren’t hoarding just to distort the economy with their stockpiles.

People default to building wealth because there’s little else worth spending their time on. So at least wealth-building gives some feeling of progress, and some feeling of ‘freedom’. Freedom meaning “well if I decided I wanted to do activity X, at least I’ll be able to afford it”. People often build wealth simply hoping that someday EVE will implement some feature that’s interesting enough for them to spend it on.

Yes, there are some people that hoard just for the sake of hoarding. Which is irrelevant since we could all be billionaires and it wouldn’t change EVE gameplay mechanics one bit. There’s an amusing GIF I saw on Reddit with Bart Simpson writing out lines on the blackboard:
Tedium does not make good gameplay

Some aspects of the economy were/are out of whack (Rorqs/Orcas, null ratting, etc.) and CCP is taking steps to address those. Reasonable steps, in some cases. I think they overdid it on some of the other economic changes but we can work around that.

The huge missing element in what EVE is supposed to be about is “valid reasons to engage in and risk resources on PvP”. For most players, most of the time, there’s no just motivation or need to engage in PvP.

When CCP pulls their heads out of their nether regions and starts making “PvP great again” (real, combat ship PvP, not the high sec ganking you see all the lamers crying for), then we’ll see a healthier economy and a less depressed player count.

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Securing the right to accumulate wealth was the primary driver for PvP during the early days. There wasn’t enough of the good stuff for everyone (like 6/10 DED plexes, good moons, high-sec static complexes, etc.), so players actually fought over space to win opportunities for increased wealth.

As time went on, and the game kept getting invaded more and more by the tearful casual masses, CCP separated EVE’s PvPvE gameplay into two distinct concepts: PvP and PvE. Now everyone has their own private moon to gobble, their own private abyssal pocket to grind, and their own index-driven null-sec pocket to farm. Add to this vast super-capital proliferation, removal of all high-sec aggression except for suicide-ganking, and the ability to turn wormholes into fortresses with powerful citadels.

Of course there’s no more meaningful PvP content. The entire reason why players fought in the first place has been replaced with a bunch of open faucets. CCP isn’t “busy” with other things; they’re doing desperate damage control to keep the game’s environment barely functional, like a doctor trying to keep alive a morbidly-obese individual who ate themselves into a stroke-induced coma.

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More fantasy and delusion, as usual from Destiny. Facts are so easy to come by when you can make them up on the spot!

Please do let us know how you’ve managed to obtain ‘private’ moons. Other PvPers seem to have found that moon mining was an excellent source of content:

Also fill us in on how people are getting to and from Abyssal pockets without being PvP targets, especially since the traces are scannable.

And do update us on the mechanics of how having a null-sec pocket to farm isn’t open to PvP, or how it’s different than Null has ever been. Since it’s the ‘tearful masses’ who got it added, apparently.

I won’t even bother correcting you that wardecs still exist in high sec, and wormholes could always be fortified with player owned bases. Which were more defensible than citadels, in some ways.

For the early years, there was some fighting and PvP in the game because the mechanics hadn’t all been worked out to the last decimal, people didn’t have other and better games to turn to, everyone wasn’t glued to their smartphone 4 hours a day, etc.

You keep talking about the ‘new generation’ of players who will avoid PvP at any cost. I suppose you mean those hundreds of millions of players out there doing shooters, MOBAs, battle royales, survival games etc. And the fact that nearly all the people who played EVE 15 years ago are still out there playing combat games. They just dumped EVE because it’s not really a combat game anymore. It’s barely even PvP. It’s just ganking and ambushes.

That’s nothing to do with the pleas of the tearful masses. That’s just CCPs sucky game design coming home to roost after players gave them a decade to deliver the game they promised and they continually failed.

When folks stop whining about how CCP and the casuals “took PvP away” and start focusing on ways to add interesting and worthwhile PvP back into the game, maybe CCP will finally wake up and do something about it.

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Keep this in mind too:

Going on now for nearly 2 years the entire world’s dynamic of work and life has been turned on it’s ear (and it doesn’t look like that is now ever going to change :sleepy:)

Part of that is more people are working from home or remote locations than ever before. That means potentially more people can be logged in now during the day.

You can’t go on PVP roams or do gate camps or hacking sessions while working, but you can do mining. Just cozy up to a belt in a tanky miner and go with it.

It’s better than not doing anything.

That’s an impressive amount of gas lighting and half truths.

Should I read it? Such a terse reply makes me feel like I’m missing out on some gold.

It’s like being waterboarded by someone who keeps denying EVE is a pvp sandbox, ad nauseam, carefully sprinkled with some semi facts but then very deliberately omitting facts, just to suit a narrative. No point in trying to have a discussion with someone who’s dishonest from the get go, it’ll just result in a troll/rage war that’ll end with an ISD post.

Wasted effort, just point and laugh.

That’s OK, I keep making this point:

and the high-sec gankers keep drawing the conclusion that I’m a carebear who wants all PvP removed from the game. So clearly, part of being a ganker in EVE is all about being able to fool even yourself.

When the gankers stop being terrified of the idea of real ship combat in EVE, maybe we’ll be able to make some progress on convincing CCP that EVE players are ready for a real challenge.

Instead of, you know, needing their targets tripped, blindfolded and held down for them before they’re willing to risk taking a shot.

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I’m not a ganker.

I bet your “worthwhile pvp” has something to do with duels at the sun or some other weird honoure fantasy.

Ok I read it.

Shudder

Well, that was a massive dose of composition fallacy for which I wasn’t prepared. I’m already approaching LD50 from reading DMC’s “historical facts” about ganking and PvP whenever those pop up. But at least he’s not an orbiter, and posts useful stuff some of the time.

All of that “worthwhile PvP” is possible, and has always been possible, since day one anyway. But there’s a reason why hardly anyone engages in it. But let’s ignore the facts that the “interesting and worthwhile PvP” that needs to be “added back into the game” (emphasis mine) was just as non-consensual in 2006 as any PvP is today (if not considerably more so), and the only difference between then and now is that much fewer people whinged and complained about it 15 years ago.

Frankly I’d like to see some of this “worthwhile PvP” be put into the game. I think the forums would be even more interesting when all the people that keep asking for it on my behalf still refuse to engage in any of it, while trying to mock me for not giving a rat’s ass about it because I claim to be a PvPer and thus I should like it by default and am a hypocrite for not taking part in it, apparently.

I want to add this: I am going to go out into low-sec and engage in some “worthwhile” and “honorable” PvP content as soon as a carebear contracts me a fully fitted ship to do so at no cost to myself. No? Well tough ■■■■, then. I’m not going to buy PLEX for the privilege of paying these people for my “war materiel” just to not hurt their vidya game feelings. They’re not going to have their cake and eat it too while I volunteer to do 100% of the paying and 100% of the losing.

It’s mostly just empty words like “we should just end world hunger”, without factual and achievable ideas it’s a meaningless statement. I bet “meaningful” means somethingsomething fair fight somethingsomething.

Funny bit is that I still to this day do “meaningfull pvp” in high sec, minus the solo wardecs. Can flipping can still work, mission baiting certainly works and same with suspect baiting. But I bet carebears wouldn’t see that as meaningful, to me it’s very interactive where you effectively have a silent conversation going on with someone who might be on the brink of making a bad decision.

It’s why I personally don’t gank (any more). I did it in a distant past for profit but found it boring and unfulfilling: there’s no real interaction happening other than “b00m” and possible hate mail afterwards. I’ve ganked for “personal reasons” (people who annoyed me or for area control). The only ganking I’ve done in the last 5 years or so is when some newer player I’m helping wants to try it out so we have a go and even that hardly ever happens.

Good thing I didn’t call you one then.

But at least we’ve now moved on from being completely wrong (“someone who keeps denying EVE is a pvp sandbox”) and moved on to “you’ve got no idea what you’re actually disagreeing with”. So that’s some progress right there.

There are a couple ways of making PvP worthwhile to certain audiences. The easy, cheap, low-effort way is to provide opportunities for people in combat/PvP fits to fight and win against essentially unarmed opponents. That’s a large part of what EVE has to offer.

(PvP in this case meaning ships actually fit for combat fighting other combat-ready ships, as opposed to hauling or mining or exploring ships. Just in case some people have lost sight of what actual PvP is really about.)

The other way is to make workable systems that encourage players to engage in actual PvP, combat fit ship vs combat fit ship. (That means ships fit with reasonably effective weapons and a decent chance of fighting back, since some of the EVE “PvP” crowd can’t get that part straight either.)

This doesn’t mean one-off duels. It doesn’t mean the 2% of the EVE player base who roam low-sec or null and do small-gang combat (although of course that’s part of it). A very small percent of players can derive what feels like meaningful combat from the current game. That doesn’t in any way show that the game itself is structured properly for it.

It means putting systems and mechanics in EVE that offer more to the average player than simply wasting time and ISK trying to engage in PvP.

While there are currently Abyssal arenas available, that’s a very limited and somewhat uncreative implementation. Better solutions would be things like fixing Faction Warfare, implementing Resource Wars the way it could have/should have been done, setting up more interesting contract types like protection contracts, and making bounty hunting/white knighting a viable career option.

There’s no need to remove ganking or asymmetric PvP or ambushes or gatecamping or any of those, they can all stay as is. The point is to add more options rather than keep relying on the lowest-hanging fruit of the PvP world to drive conflict.

Those aren’t examples of “meaningful PvP.”

“Meaningful PvP” is when a gankbear “puts their money where their mouth is” and takes a ship to where all the ~R~E~A~L~ PvPers live (which is apparently sov-null full of renter bot operators covered by a super-cap umbrella) to engage in ~R~E~A~L~ PvP combat to prove that they’re not a no-skill gankbaby hiding behind CONCORD protection in the starter zone.

Well, that’s the kind of definitions we get when people who have no personal experience in a major facet of gameplay decide to provide valuable input on what it was, is, and should be.

I’ve been doing it wrong all these years!

You can’t encourage carebears to pvp, they’re too busy with “numbers go up” and “leave me alone, why can’t you leave me alone. I paid for this game, my friend is a GM and he’ll get you banned”. You know this so why even bring it up, it’s just dishonest to even pretend that would work. CCP tried it with FW and look how that turned out.

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Whenever these people ask for “meaningful PvP,” it’s never because they want it. Their arguments always entail speaking for players who aren’t them to convince them that that’s what they want. It’s just a red herring intended to make the arguments more palatable and bring into question the credibility of anyone who disagrees, i.e. “I want meaningful PvP, don’t you want meaningful PvP too? what kind of PvPer are you if you don’t want meaningful PvP?” But they would never actually engage in it if it were to be provided and available; that’s not what they’re here for.

That argument about all the “hundreds of millions of players out there doing shooters, MOBAs, battle royales, survival games etc.” is laughable because it ignores the fundamental premise of all those games, which doesn’t have the option to engage in anything but fighting the enemy team in a deathmatch battle. I find it amazingly hard to believe that if they added some kind of resource-farming mechanic to a game like Battlefield, that there wouldn’t be a bunch of people playing those games just to do that specific thing, and then complaining if anyone from the opposing force disrupted their grind.

Because let me tell you, I have thousands of hours in Planetside 2, and countless stories about being cursed out by players I killed/interrupted who were farming certs through damage/repair cycles with alts/friends in random non-active sections of the map.

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Not only that but in those games there is no real loss, it’s meaningless. Hence my “half truths and omitting facts” remark.

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