I regret to inform that we still don't die enough

Communications Center General Discussion
582

In my view, the tribalism in Eve is just not sufficient to create epic conflict on a regular basis. For sustained epic conflict you really need a ‘good guys vs bad guys’ scenario…it is what motivates people most…and there simply aren’t any ‘good guys’ in Eve. There’s just shades of bad.

Instead what you get is a puny shadow of good guys vs bad in miners/others vs gankers. My problem with ganking is I want to lose my ships in something epic. In such conflict the loss of a 1bn ship would be an honour and badge of pride…not simply ‘oh…those damned gankers again’. Ganking is just a rather poor quality local Mafia. Sure…some make a lot of ISK out of it, but then what is the end point of making all those ISK ? Just to get a big pile to sit on ?

583

The fact that you make this criticism against gankers specifically and literally no one else is kind of interesting in itself.

584

I’d make it against anyone who is simply raking in ISK and not doing anything with it. The only real purpose of ISK is combat ships. But if gankers are choosing the cheapest possible fits…then one does have to wonder where all those billions of ISK reported on zKillboard are going.

585

That pretty much covers every miner, mission-runner, etc. in the game.

The sunk costs of each gank, failed ganks and losses to AGs, money needed to keep accounts in Omega state (selling SP doesn’t cover 100%), covering scouts and scanners, etc. etc. all stacks up to the point where the actual profits aren’t as big as you might envision them to be.

And since a large proportion of gankers are alts of high-sec war bros, low-sec pirates, and null regulars, the money goes toward war fees, replacing losses, etc. Some spare money is also used to gank targets that aren’t profitable (like barges and empty freighters).

But in the case of the miner, for example, after they get their Exhumer and Orca combo, they don’t really need money for anything else aside from replacing an occasional gank loss. Yet they keep mining day in and day out. It’s not like they can get expensive gear with their money because that would make them a bigger target, and even if they did, that’s still a very low expenditure ceiling. Same for mission-runners; once they get the faction-fit CNR, what else is there to buy? Officer gear? It will just get exploded by Tornadoes. It’s just money for the sake of money.

586

I disagree. I don’t think it’s smart to label players “good” or “bad” in a video game. It’s all pretend and even if actions may seem aggressive, the players is only playing the game, doing what is allowed by the Devs.

They’re just playing the game… be sure I’d gank you would I have the opportunity. The game allows it. Big battles are nice but threy are few and I’m not that rich to participate in one yet. I could throw 4 or 5 ships at it at most right now.

Not poor quality enough not to blow things up.

The point is like other games, get more stuff to keep playing.

587

Sorry but your game is a mess and you have no idea what you’re doing playing Eve. The reason I have lost ships because I am totally solo in a dangerous area and I do like to PVP but the odds are against me. So, what should I do about it? Blame everything on design and move to hisec and never PVP alone again, and declare my hatred for CCP, their game, and everyone having fun??

Unfortunately Eve doesn’t have a magic wand I can use to make my style of PVP more fair, I’m afraid I am stuck with what’s on offer because I choose to live solo in a dangerous area.

You don’t seem to get that PVP is a means to an end, I don’t blame CCP for me choosing to play solo that is 100% my decision where I must take ownership of anything that happens to me as a result.

I’m probably going to leave this convo here as you have no clue what being daring and adventurous is, and you actually want to critisize anyone getting enjoyment from Eve. I hope that developers will completely ignore you and never try to design the game to your liking. Eve has given me some of the best gaming experiences in my life and for that I will always respect EVe and CCP.

I live solo in a dangerous part of space and I have spent much of my game trying to get people to come live in this area and defend it yet I’m the one with the deficient imagination? You seem to have a deluded imagination.

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588

I’ve yet to meet a single serial carebear who spends most of their time on the forums trying to get players to subscribe to their idea of “meaningful PvP” (ironic since they themselves don’t engage in any form of combat PvP) who could actually understand this concept.

To them, PvP is something for which you grind skill points and NPC PvE content until you’re “ready,” and then you go on a “fleet roam” to “pew pew” with your “m8s.”

They literally can’t mentally reconcile PvP as an actual career choice like mining or mission-running is to them, and that despite what form the PvP takes on (e.g. ganking, or gate-camping, or looking for ratting capitals to jump, or even mass-scale null-sec invasions or home defense ops, etc.), it’s conducted to result in tangible progress for the player engaging in it, and not merely as an outlet for the two dozen Rifters or Drakes or whatever you construct for the express purpose of spontaneously losing during the weekend.

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589

Giving yourself away again :smiley: Love to see it.

How do you know they aren’t doing anything with it? You must have a source for this opinion.

Preach.

You sir, are EVE.

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590

It’s amazing you can state the latter, when you’re pretty much contradicting yourself. Just as many gankers are also war bros, etc…many miners are too. I’ve even seen comments from gankers stating that they also mine. So your generalisation of ‘the miner’ is just nonsense.

Between my characters I have 2 Procs and 4 Ventures…but their cost is less than my hangars filled with 8 Condors, 4 Algos, 3 Caracals, a Hecate, 3 Vexors, and numerous others. My ‘spare parts’ hanger for the combat ships is alone worth more than a fitted Proc. My time is roughly half divided between mining and PvE.

The only reason I mine is to pay for the PvE…and it is that way with most miners.

591

what?

PVE generates way more isk than mining ever will. Why do you need to pay for it? It pays for itself.

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592

I’ve no doubt living solo in nullsec is daring and adventurous. But then, it’s daring and adventurous every time I take a Proc out and there’s half a dozen red names in Local from known ganker groups. It’s daring and adventurous when I take a Condor out for highsec/lowsec PvE…knowing that a single shot from a Catalyst can wipe out the puny ship. It’s daring and adventurous when I use a shuttle to transport a 20m ISK item from Dodixie. And so on. In most of Eve, simply stepping outside a station is daring and adventurous.

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593

Nah…ratting in highsec, even in a 0.5 system, makes less than mining ore. It only really balances out once you get to the lower end of lowsec. But I’ve lost 2 Condors in that process just in the past few weeks, and the rats even in a 0.5 system are quite able to destroy one. So my ISK go on fitting out bigger and better ships…rather than sitting around as ‘profit’.

594

It’s far more a case of cost vs risk. That is the factor. One starts off with low cost ships like my Condors. Low ISK loss if you lose one…but then they are puny, just 30DPS, and easily swatted.

So you get a bigger and better ship. But, there’s always a bigger and better ship than that…which can destroy you. And I can quite easily see how this ends up with people having 2bn ships that just get taken out on Sundays in some 1.0 system and returned to dock after the bling has been shown off.

Eve is sort of like the gambler fallacy. If I only spend more…I’ll make up what I’ve lost. So the gambler puts bigger and bigger bets on…

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595

got to disagree. Nothing makes less than mining ore.

Before todays patch it took me around 3 hours to fill an orca. which depending on the split of ores is maybe 40mill compressed give or take.

If i went ratting for the same period of time (never leaving high sec) id be expecting between 100mill and 200mill.

You have a hecate. fly around focussing on refuges and only loot the named boss if he spaws. “dark blood” “dread gurista” “true sansha” etc. Last week i picked of 125mill module from one refuge in 0.8 system. The refuges can escalate and a properly fitted vexor would be able to run those (upgrade to a VNI) if you are having problems. Again the named bosses in these sites have a chance to drop pretty expensive modules.

If you really want to go to town on it fit a probe scanner which will open up more combat site options with more possible escalations.

Mining doesnt come close to ratting income.

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596

I’m still in training for the skills for the Hecate. But I can manage a Caracal. My Algos is pretty good for ratting too.

After reading your post I looked up combat anomalies…I’ve never been in one, though I often see them scattered around the sky. I’ve generally ratted in asteroid belts…even once got a 40m ISK item doing that, though that is rare.

597

watch this

598

The drop chance in anoms is really low and even if it drops it’s generally crap. So you have have a 5% spawn chance of which at least 50% sucks due to low value. The bounties aren’t really worth it either.

You do those HS anoms for the escalations and as such you only want to do those that escalate into something you can handle. This differs per faction, some have 3-5/10 escalations, caldari only has 4-5/10 and minmatar is really only 5/10. There’s also lower stuff but generally not worth it unless a super newbie.

It’s those escalations that bring in the real isk, possibly combined with scanning for ded/unrated but even that depends on faction.

Drone ships aren’t great for this, they’re easy but not good, especially since anoms are competitive.

599

which is why i suggested Refuges :slight_smile:

I agree escalations are where you want to go. Im just making the point that even those high sec green sigs still have a chance of dropping something worthwhile.

600

Yeah, gosh, you’re right. Over a decade and a half of EVE without crying about my playstyle being nerfed or ruined, without needing to shoot unarmed AFKs to feel good about myself, sitting on more ISK than I can spend, more Plex than I can use and more ships and skilled pilots than I can fly. I sure don’t know how to EVE, please teach me senpai!

Meanwhile you’re waxing poetic about bravery and adventure and your wonderful days of PvP with your friends.

Except in three years, you’ve gone PvPing on exactly 21 days. On 2 of those days you had a single player with you. PvP is so exciting, so thrilling and so interesting for you that you engage in it seven days a year, on average.

So here’s the buzz, cuz. I’ll wrap it up simple for you…

I’m not against PvP. I don’t get ganked. I don’t hate EVE, I don’t curse the devs (though I do criticize), I’m not afraid to lose ships. I don’t mine, farm, multibox, bot or AFK play. I’m not invested in any one playstyle.

I criticize bad game design because it’s bad game design. I’ve designed, programmed, and made a living off of multiplayer games. I prefer to see games designed well, rather than designed badly.

You’re here, in total support of EVE PvP, as are many others in this thread, and yet virtually none of you have a significant PvP killboard. I don’t mean you have no kills. I mean there isn’t enough activity there to call it a main, frequent, well-supported game activity.

That’s a sad state of affairs in a “hardcore PvP game”.

At any rate, I’m sure I’ll get accused of posting another “hate-filled fanatic slab of rage” for this, because the PvPers (especially the gankers), seem to thrive on thinking they provoked massive reactions. But the reality is this:

Eve is supposed to be PvP hardcore, but it’s actually got some of the least interesting and least frequent PvP of any PvP-oriented game I’ve ever played.

EVE has a pretty good space economic simulation going. It has a very weak “space warfare and open conflict” simulation. So weak that at any given time, there’s literally only about a couple dozen people on the forums complaining about it, and the same amount of PvPers foaming at the mouth shouting it’s the one true center of EVE.

I think EVE can do PvP better than that. For some odd reason, this seems to infuriate the rabid PvP fanbois. Go figure.

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601

I never stated that mining can’t be done as a side profession for PvPers, but let’s be realistic and admit that the proportion of gankers being income-generating alts of PvPers and the proportion of miners being income-generating alts of PvPers are vastly different. Out of all the PvPers I’ve ever known, and I’ve known a lot, only a handful mined as a side activity, and usually did so in a highly coordinated manner and most of the time in a non-high-sec area of space.

So most of the high-sec miners are indeed just…miners.

You’re wasting your time on gutter trash-tier content. You can set up a damage/sniper Caracal for about 10 million ISK, and go to low-sec and make tens of million every hour in relative safety. Instead you’re stuck in this mindset where you’re only risking the smallest amount of your assets possible because you want to minimize your costs instead of maximizing your gain.

Even a week into the game, it’s possible to make so much money that the expenditure of a frigate doesn’t even register on your wallet, but you choose to try to make a living from the lowest common denominator content instead of upgrading your gameplay to a wholly new cardinality the moment you’re able to.