I regret to inform that we still don't die enough

[Aisha_Katalen]

@Destiny_Corrupted

So most of the high-sec miners are indeed just…miners.

A vast portion of them are null alts.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

I’d imagine they’d want to mine in null instead since it’s even safer (and definitely more profitable) there, but then again CCP just boosted barge EHP like 3x so maybe that’s not going to be a consideration going forward (unless gankers are willing to get even more accounts).

[Aaron]

@Kezrai_Charzai

Except in three years, you’ve gone PvPing on exactly 21 days. On 2 of those days you had a single player with you. PvP is so exciting, so thrilling and so interesting for you that you engage in it seven days a year, on average.

I’ve not yet finished reading your post yet but i will respond to this. PVP does not always need to result in a killmail, I daily avoid gate camps and pipe bombs on gates, I also avoid being one shotted while docking and undocking, and I also avoid being caught in a combat site with my battleship, You probably won’t understand that being ready to counter pvp is actually classed as pvp.

@Kezrai_Charzai

You’re here, in total support of EVE PvP, as are many others in this thread, and yet virtually none of you have a significant PvP killboard. I don’t mean you have no kills. I mean there isn’t enough activity there to call it a main, frequent, well-supported game activity.

This shows me you have no understanding of the game you pay for and play. In order to like pvp one does not need to do it for every second they are logged on. How can you be sure how much time I have invested in PVP, how do you know I’m not docked analysing previous fights, working on fits, watching videos on youtube of pvp? How can you be sure I don’t have another alt which has more kills than this alt?

You don’t seem to understand a miner could even throw together a cheap ship and gank the destroyer trying to kill his mining ship on his other account, that’s PVP in Eve, It’s actually not a question of liking or disliking Pvp, it’s more a question of can you be knowledgeable within Eve and use your intelligence to analyse the mechanics and save your mining ship.

If a miner was able to defend himself in this manner whenever he’s attacked I’d say they are okay at pvp. It’s not a question of how much time this miner has spent on PVP, it’s a question of him being able to use it to progress his game when the need arises.

[Cilla_Cybin]

@Destiny_Corrupted

You’re wasting your time on gutter trash-tier content. You can set up a damage/sniper Caracal for about 10 million ISK, and go to low-sec and make tens of million every hour in relative safety. Instead you’re stuck in this mindset where you’re only risking the smallest amount of your assets possible because you want to minimize your costs instead of maximizing your gain.

You’re forgetting that on my very first trip into lowsec I got gate camped. That wasn’t exactly a 'welcome to the wonderful world of exploring in Eve ’ moment !

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Cilla_Cybin

You’re forgetting that on my very first trip into lowsec I got gate camped. That wasn’t exactly a 'welcome to the wonderful world of exploring in Eve ’ moment !

It was a very cheap lesson to find out that low-sec systems might have gate camps.

Past this point, you should be able to do some research, which will help you realize that about 95% of low-sec systems are completely devoid of any player activity. I’ll provide 2 hints:

1. The “low-sec entry” systems that your route sends you through? It sends everyone else to them as well. maybe look for an entry system out of the way of the regular routes.

2. The in-game map has a heat map feature for various activity metrics that will give you an overview of how active systems are.

[Cilla_Cybin]

@Destiny_Corrupted

So most of the high-sec miners are indeed just…miners.

But there’s equally gankers who are just gankers. Heck, there’s a bunch of them who roam about within a few systems of Vittenyn, but mainly they spend their entire time lurking in the stations or just outside. They sometimes rapidly undock if there’s a target. There’s one who literally spends all day in one of the stations on my main asteroid system…probably reporting on who’s in the system. I mean…just how boring is that ? I’d imagine being a ganker scout must make mining look positively inspiring.

[Aisha_Katalen]

Calling Aaron “confused” is a big mistake which only shows how little that person knows and how non-vet that person is.

Just saying.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Cilla_Cybin

But there’s equally gankers who are just gankers.

Correct, there are. I never disputed that either.

@Cilla_Cybin

Heck, there’s a bunch of them who roam about within a few systems of Vittenyn, but mainly they spend their entire time lurking in the stations or just outside. They sometimes rapidly undock if there’s a target. There’s one who literally spends all day in one of the stations on my main asteroid system…probably reporting on who’s in the system. I mean…just how boring is that ? I’d imagine being a ganker scout must make mining look positively inspiring.

It’s likely an alt instead of a player specifically playing that way. They align their screens in order to be able to see overviews/dock lists conveniently on the side in order to be able to react to changes quickly.

[Dracvlad]

I like what you say and what you think, however Aaron is the real deal.

[Kezrai_Charzai]

I’m not being clear then, I think. I’m not saying Aaron is bad at PvP, bad at the game, talking through his hat, or doesn’t know what he’s doing out there.

He’s clearly out, as he says in dangerous space, in decent combat fits, doing decent combat, win some lose some so he’s not just ganking or only taking 90% certain win fights.

If he’s got that many killmails then as he says, clearly he’s attempting/working around/dodging many more fights than show as kills. So he’s clearly an EVE PvP fan, he’s clearly capable, and in my own, personal opinion, for a supposedly hardcore PvP-centric game, he’s engaging in about 10% of the PvP I’d want to see him doing if it was my game he was sending money to.

That’s all fine. I’m obviously giving the impression to some people that I hate EVE, hate PvP, don’t play, suck at gaming, yadda yadda.

The point I keep trying to make is that, even for people who are into the way EVE PvP works, there’s just not enough of it happening. There’s not enough PvP to even close to balance destruction. There’s not enough PvP that I can reliably think, ever, “you know what, I’ve got an hour to EVE, I think I’m gonna go do some PvP” and get a satisfying result.

Yes, other people are satisfied with EVE PvP. That’s fine. But I, personally, know dozens of PvP oriented players who’ve given up on EVE and moved on, and I’m not really all that social a player.

CCP’s stats show PvP is a minority activity. Logins show massive declines in EVE player base over the years. Recent stats show a very low number (in my opinion) of subbed accounts. MERs show dropping activity across virtually every aspect of the game.

From a game design point of view, IMO, EVE has half a dozen major issues they need to address to reverse the declines and be more succesful. One of those areas is that PvP mechanics and rewards need an update to in order to be more viable and a bigger part of the game going forward.

I’ve no idea why that upsets the PvP crowd, but it does. And if they say silly things in reply to my posts on it, then I will treat them like they’re silly. It’s nothing personal.

[Xucca]

To all:

Is this an arms race?

Do you think that increasing the bellic ability of vessels could eventually lead to more confrontations?
By bellic, I mean not only tank but also damage projection.

[Dracvlad]

I understand and accept your point of view, and that you are not saying he is bad. Aaron is exactly what he explained, he has to avoid and pick his moments, I think he is a great player, I also think he jumped in on you in this thread and you defended your ideas.

The thing is that I don’t think Eve is just a PvP game as you said, it is much more than that. The main issue is that CCP cheapened the game a lot over the years based on the easy kills, or ships are ammo for easy thrill players and are trying to come back from that, so they managed to upset everyone.

But I am seeing multiple players coming back. I myself came back two months ago after a years break. The PvP is rather rock paper scissor and the thrill comes in the main that you are losing stuff that you have to work hard to build and replace. That made it special, and when CCP cheapened that they screwed their game.

Respect, o7

PS They make it personal…, but you can always block them when they get out of order.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Etch_Masuka

what?

PVE generates way more isk than mining ever will. Why do you need to pay for it? It pays for itself.

Its cause she’s lying She is attempting to play off this char as new, but is getting lost in the sauce

@Cilla_Cybin

I’ve no doubt living solo in nullsec is daring and adventurous. But then, it’s daring and adventurous every time I take a Proc out and there’s half a dozen red names in Local from known ganker groups. It’s daring and adventurous when I take a Condor out for highsec/lowsec PvE…knowing that a single shot from a Catalyst can wipe out the puny ship. It’s daring and adventurous when I use a shuttle to transport a 20m ISK item from Dodixie. And so on. In most of Eve, simply stepping outside a station is daring and adventurous.

So much wrong with this paragraph

@Cilla_Cybin

Nah…ratting in highsec, even in a 0.5 system, makes less than mining ore. It only really balances out once you get to the lower end of lowsec. But I’ve lost 2 Condors in that process just in the past few weeks, and the rats even in a 0.5 system are quite able to destroy one. So my ISK go on fitting out bigger and better ships…rather than sitting around as ‘profit’.

Why would you rat in highsec wut.

@Kezrai_Charzai

Over a decade and a half of EVE without crying about my playstyle being nerfed or ruined, without needing to shoot unarmed AFKs to feel good about myself, sitting on more ISK than I can spend, more Plex than I can use and more ships and skilled pilots than I can fly. I sure don’t know how to EVE, please teach me senpai!

All of that, and his simple joy in playing EVE makes you burn with envy and spit venom.

@Kezrai_Charzai

Meanwhile you’re waxing poetic about bravery and adventure and your wonderful days of PvP with your friends.

As he should. He is having a great time. He is the proantagnist of his own story. You aren’t. It is clear.

@Kezrai_Charzai

You’re here, in total support of EVE PvP, as are many others in this thread, and yet virtually none of you have a significant PvP killboard. I don’t mean you have no kills. I mean there isn’t enough activity there to call it a main, frequent, well-supported game activity.

What is a “significant PvP killboard”? Do you need a certain amount of kills per day? Certain ISK value? What is an acceptable amount of activity for you?

@Kezrai_Charzai

Eve is supposed to be PvP hardcore, but it’s actually got some of the least interesting and least frequent PvP of any PvP-oriented game I’ve ever played.

Yet you still play it Looks like CCP beat you huh?

What I find tragically funny is that you are here spitting venom on this dude when all he is doing is expressing the joy he’s had PvPing and in game. The fact that it evokes this response is telling.

Because that used to be you. You used to find a simple joy in undocking with bros and trying to blap things. Now? Now you simply sit in the ruins of your memories. Surrounded by all the riches you could need, yet it brings none of the feelings it once did.

You are, in a nutshell, a bitter veteran. I pity you.

@Aaron

I’ve not yet finished reading your post yet but i will respond to this. PVP does not always need to result in a killmail, I daily avoid gate camps and pipe bombs on gates, I also avoid being one shotted while docking and undocking, and I also avoid being caught in a combat site with my battleship, You probably won’t understand that being ready to counter pvp is actually classed as pvp.

True that. PvP and enjoyment of it is much more than zkills.

@Aaron

If a miner was able to defend himself in this manner whenever he’s attacked I’d say they are okay at pvp. It’s not a question of how much time this miner has spent on PVP, it’s a question of him being able to use it to progress his game when the need arises.

You sir, give me hope. Hope that EVE can become what it was meant to be again. I had a similar experience recently. Gave me a lot of hope.

@Cilla_Cybin

You’re forgetting that on my very first trip into lowsec I got gate camped. That wasn’t exactly a 'welcome to the wonderful world of exploring in Eve ’ moment !

That is a welcome to EVE. Its the classic welcome to EVE.

@Dracvlad

I like what you say and what you think, however Aaron is the real deal.

When Drac and I agree on something, you know it must be real.

@Kezrai_Charzai

clearly he’s attempting/working around/dodging many more fights than show as kills

You realize being good at PvP is also dodging fights that you may lose so you stay alive right? This does not give me confidence in your PvP know how.

@Kezrai_Charzai

That’s all fine. I’m obviously giving the impression to some people that I hate EVE, hate PvP, don’t play, suck at gaming, yadda yadda.

You do

@Dracvlad

I myself came back two months ago after a years break.

After Aiko bullied you into it

@Dracvlad

PS They make it personal…, but you can always block them when they get out of order.

Bro, you condescend to peeps on the daily in the AG channel. That kettle keeps getting blacker huh?

[Xucca]

To me, it’s a question of identifying which elements could contribute to more destruction.
At present, it seems the initiatives have not worked enough to achieve the supposedly required levels.

And my opinion is that I rather have it from players and not “environmental”.

I would love to know if it’s a question of the hulls ability to not only sustain damage for not being combat oriented, but also, to deliver damage, to better defend themselves…

I rather a thousand times experience players doing Concord’s “job”, see it multiply all over the place. --as example–.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Gix_Firebrand

What is a “significant PvP killboard”? Do you need a certain amount of kills per day? Certain ISK value? What is an acceptable amount of activity for you?

This will always be a moving goal post for them. No matter what your stats or, or how active you are, it will always “not be enough” to give “credibility” to whatever argument you’re trying to make with regard to PvP.

• If your kills are from ganks, you’re not doing “real” PvP
• If your kills are from gate camps, you’re a kill farmer and never “fight” anyone
• If your kills are from solo-engaging targets in low/null-sec, you’re afraid of fleet fights
• If your kills are from fleet fights, you’re afraid of solo-engaging targets
• If you have 100 kills, you don’t have 1,000 kills and should be ignored
• If you have 1,000 kills, you don’t have 5,000 kills and should be ignored

etc. etc. etc.

And they always do this while posting on alts that don’t have any kill board history, which they wouldn’t do if they had characters that have kill board histories, so it’s a safe conclusion that they have zero personal experience with PvP (aside from being occasional victims of piracy), but elect to criticize other players who do have PvP histories for not being good enough.

An example of hypocrisy can’t get any more textbook than this.

@Gix_Firebrand

Bro, you condescend to peeps on the daily in the AG channel. That kettle keeps getting blacker huh?

I don’t bring it up, but yes, that megalomania is entertaining (but cringy) to observe. There are some others too…

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@Dracvlad

PS They make it personal…, but you can always block them when they get out of order.

No need. There’s a certain personality type that needs to frame things in a “you’re my enemy and I beat you!” context in order to feel significant. They’re also the ones prone to re-imagining a rational discussion as “raving frothing streams of hate-filled venom” because frankly, they can’t picture someone having a different and better-supported argument than them, and therefore anyone with such a view is certifiable.

Blocking is more trouble than it’s worth. I can easily scroll past Gix’s braying and jeering and Destiny/Aisha etc occasionally have useful things to say even if they keep falling back into ad-hominem attacks. All water under the bridge.

They’re not the audience, they’re just the heckling peanut gallery. Same as the ganking issue is mostly a distraction from the real PvP issues EVE has.

As Xucca keeps asking, it’s more important to focus on why CCP can’t seem to stir up decent amounts of destruction in their “hardcore PvP” game, and what changes might cause more players to participate in more PvP more often.

[Dracvlad]

It is a valid question, but this is a deep game and the various nullsec Empires got to the point several years back where they were about to organise a fight club of sorts. Then we have Test attack the Goons with their previous enemies to shake up the game. Which if you look at the game as a proper Empire game you will think is total madness.

CCP is always looking to create fights, but they end up pushing the unwilling to be attacked by the unwilling. An example of this is war decs in hisec, so they think it is a good idea to push miners to defend their structures against war deckers who think a good fight is one where they completely dominate their opponent and suffer no losses.

The problem is that it is human nature.

Earlier I blew up a Russian roamer, baited him, a mate jammed him and I brought in DPS and blew him up. We have an alliance mate who is desperate for 1v1 action so we have agreed that should this guy arrive next time we will leave him to do a 1v1. That is amusing and not Eve…

The fact is that we blew him up because he was getting in the way of activities. And that is why PvP happens and why it is something more. Aaron’s description of having something and being able and willing to fight for it is so important.

If you make it so that people who lose can get up and build it back up again but the loss of what they have is not a knock out blow then you will get content though it is not always what the attacker wants or demands.

One of the reasons why I dislike quantum cores in hisec.

What I will say to you is that many players looked at the amount of loss they would have and the chance to defend and decided not to bother, I say that because I made that decision various times. And that most of all is why PvP is not happening…

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Kezrai_Charzai

Blocking is more trouble than it’s worth. I can easily scroll past Gix’s braying and jeering and Destiny/Aisha etc occasionally have useful things to say even if they keep falling back into ad-hominem attacks. All water under the bridge.

So you’re a coward who doesn’t want confrontation Got it. But you’re all about that hardcore PvP right? But words hurt too much? ROFL.

@Kezrai_Charzai

decent amounts of destruction

What is a decent amount of destruction? You keep using these terms and never quantifying them. I wonder why

@Dracvlad

Earlier I blew up a Russian roamer, baited him, a mate jammed him and I brought in DPS and blew him up. We have an alliance mate who is desperate for 1v1 action so we have agreed that should this guy arrive next time we will leave him to do a 1v1. That is amusing and not Eve…

Do you ever get tired of the lying or

[Cilla_Cybin]

I finally blocked Gix…as frankly there’s only so much mind-numbing silliness one can put up with in a day.

[Cilla_Cybin]

@Destiny_Corrupted

Correct, there are. I never disputed that either.

No, but you tend to present things in a very one-sided way and then come up with the usual ’ I never said…’

As for the local gankers being alts…hmm…well as I have my own 3 characters in 3 local systems I notice them just milling about from system to system, hanging about at gates, etc.