As does your typical blinged out HQ ship. You certainly won’t fly HQ site in an entry level ship.
As for risk, please review the hisec Bowhead losses in zkillboard - you will see that there’s quite a bit of them and they tend to be quite pricey - and that’s only a part of the losses as not all incursion runners use them.
There have also been incidents of running incursion fleets being attacked by gankers.
Ratting or rorquing under a supercap umbrella in sovnull is in my opinion quite a bit safer than having to travel the Uedama - Niarja pipe with a bowhead twice a week. That is if your alliance leadership has not decided to deploy said supercap umbrella out of reach of your home…
Training time for bare entry level is 2 months or so, typical incursion runners able to fill several roles are north of a year or two.
But of course CCP only has an ear for plexing Nullbears. Maybe they will listen more when all the paying hisec players just cancel their subs.
On an average month this year, 300 rorquals, 300 Nidhoggurs and 300 Thanatoses get blown up(and 100 Chimeras, 100 Archons for a total of 800 carriers). In the same time period 15 bowheads die and you’re trying to tell me bowheads illustrate how incursion running is a risky activity?
That’s over 50 carriers dying per bowhead yet if we go over and look at the MER, what do we see? We see that incursions make about 1/7th of the ISK of all ratting in all of the game combined. If those bowheads are actually supposed to represent incursion risk, you should expect to see 150 bowheads dying per month. Pointing at the bowheads truly reveals how low risk this activity actually is.
As I said bowheads are not quite all Incursion Ships that are ganked, but they tend to be the juicest kills. There are of course also Battleships on their own and Orcas lost.
To put those nice and high Carrier and Rorqu kill numbers into perspective you might want to:
a) find out which of the Carrier losses happened while ratting as opposed to those which were dropped in PvP.
b) compare the number of Rorq miners and Carrier ratters in Null to the number of incursion runners - it might be a few orders of magnitude…
We did compare the numbers. All the carriers, all the VNI’s, all the super carriers and boson ratters. When you combine them all together across the entire galaxy only make 7 times more ISK then incursions do. Before the nerf Incursions pulled in 10 trillion isk per month, to even get a 1% attrition/risk you would have to lose 100 billion worth of ships per month. Even if every single bowhead loss in the universe were Incursion runners they don’t even come close to that (and spoilers: Most bowhead losses are not incursion related).
Take Esoteria where I live, because it’s a pure krab zone, all zkill losses are either people trying to make money and dying or people trying to kill the locals and dying.
700 billion destroyed
2700 billion mined
3200 billion ratted.
That’s 700 billion destroyed next to 5900 billion of in-space economic activity. Meanwhile Incursions in May made 10800 billion. If Incursion risk was proportional to nullsec, you should be able to find me 1300 billion of Incursion related losses. Can you find me 1/10th of that amount (130 billion)? Can you even find me 1/100th of that (13 billion).
Ok so now the notion of risk you use is “worth destroyed in the region over worth gained”.
Did you ever happen to know that losses in incursions may not be related to bowhead kills ?
Also that when people lose ships in incursion, it may not be put on zkillboard because they don’t put their API on this site ?
FFS
Those pages give you a LOWER LIMIT on what is lost to incursion.
For june only it’s 50B loss from the two previous sites. Only for the people who have their API in ZKB. remember that not so long ago people were doing incursions with 1-man-corp to not be wardecced and still not have NPC tax.
lol. Where would such a number come from ? why 1% and not 1/10000000 ?
FFS you are not even able to add 1+1 together !
Let’s look at the number of bowhead lost in NS to evaluate the loss of carrier rating, that would make as much sense !
Zoltan, your fellow defender of ‘incursion risk’ was the one who proposed I should look at bowheads.
So you have 10500 billion in incursion payout, 151 billion lost to the rats and a few billion lost to ganks. woop woop, amazing risk that. I bet that’s strains your financials greatly!
well then you can ask him what are HIS data that show incursion is a risk.
Again dude if you don’t use formal definitions your posts are just empty blabering. You claim that incursion is bad for the game because it has low risk. What about more interesting, even less risky activities ? When I explore in HS I am almost safe. I did it, doing 100M/h average, and only lost one loki due to a bug (superior sleeper cache exploded when I was protected and this killed me), and like 3 years before I lost one cynabal because I was literally stuck between asteroids (another bug). If your notion of risk is how many % of the generated value goes to killmails, then many other activities in HS are much less risky than incursions. And actually worth more.
What’s more, it does not take into account the time it takes to get the loss back. A carrier can be repaid in 10h. A (correct) incursion ship is worth 1 to 3 times the price (not considering the KM I linked for 6B+ because I don’t think that’s really a big enough increase in DPS) of a carrier (not sure now, need to find the new insurance values). Also the incursion runners need to move their ship, find a fleet - while the carrier just undock, and can jump to a close system if the one he is in is overkrabbed.
Also, it’s almost impossible for a carrier to die to rats (besides dreadnoughts if they go AFK). Sure they lose fighters if they don’t micro manage them correctly. But if an incursion runner does not call for reps in advance, he loses his whole ship. The cost of a disconnect is much more important for incursions than for carriers.
The values from zkillboard are not complete. Few people have their API on zkb when incursions, while most people who hunt supers have it (by themselves or for the corporation). The usage of zkb to have data only gives you a MINIMUM value. you can deduce the MAXIMUM value by estimating when people would stop doing this activity.
But using a minimum bound as a real value is bad ; just as using a definition of risks that decides to remove data that you don’t like (eg the NPC kills).
If you are claiming that incursions provides less interactions than ratting in nullsec - sorry you are very wrong. I did both, and most of the interaction from NS krab is seeing the carrier warp off when you land. Unless they are bots, which is even a worse thing. Or people get angry when a newbro in VNI does the haven (to be fair this is not mandatory, in hord It was also very noob-friendly). On the opposite, I met very nice person in incursions, and if I consider it’s not a playstyle I appreciate, I still think it brings social interactions people may come in the game to enjoy - I wish I could give the items I was given when I started back because that was definitely a nice move.
I’m not making any claims regarding if high sec incursions are good or bad for the game, I honestly don’t know. I’m merely contesting the to me laughable claim that Incursions have more or even the same order of magnitude of risk as making money in nullsec.
The reason your ship is more expensive then the carrier is just because of that extremely low risk. Carrier ticks are also improved by stuffing them full of blue modules like pinatas however the reason they don’t is because the cost/benefit just isn’t there (And if you’re going to spend that much you may as well upgrade to a super carrier or a titan).
You might then think, supers, they’re super safe. It takes massive effort to kill those and you’re right. Even so on average about 60 ratting supers die every month.
We can put all the data we have put in this thread together. According to the MER, nullsec earned 52 trillion isk from bounties in May. The same time period saw the destruction of about 800 carriers at about 1.4 billion after insurance, 60 super carriers at about 18 billion and 7,714 VNI’s which zkill claims totaled 832 billion.
If you total all those losses up, you get 1120 billion in carriers, 1080 billion in supers and 832 billion in VNIs for 52000 billion ratted and 3032 billion destroyed. That means the average nullsec ratter makes 17 isk for every 1 isk they lost.
For incursions the data we have is 10500 billion earned, 151 billion lost to rats and if we pretend every bowhead ever lost was incursion related, that’s 22b. That nets 60 isk made for every 1 isk lost.
Notice how this doesn’t even account for home defense costs or infrastructure costs. There’s just no data supporting your arguments. Your argument is nonsensical because you’re trying to point towards data that doesn’t exist to demonstrate risk while at the same time you’re using ship fits which are ten times more expensive then they need to do the job. You don’t need faction guns, you don’t need faction tracking computers, faction sebos and A-type hardeners, you have them because they improve your isk per hour even when accounting for the lost ships.
Lol, this is so cute… So every Carrier and Super lost counts as a loss while Cap Ratting. No, these things never get dropped on anything in anger…
And also VNIs are exclusively used for Nullsec ratting.
And as for the 10T earned for incursions - all of this was surely in Hisec as Low- and Nulsec Incursions never get run…
I don’t. As I told you, the data you give are only a minimum bound and thus do not allow you to affirm the values you give.
Plus your claim of “you don’t need it” is completely wrong. I used the exact definition you used to make those values, so if the definition of “risk = isk loss / isk generated” is incorrect it’s your fault. But you can’t accept a definition in one case and invalidate it in another case, to make a comparison.
I so so want to explain to you why you’re so wrong and why you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
But what happens in fight club stays in fight club and i’m bound by that communities rules of not talking about fight club.
I’ll give you a hint though which i think i can get away with. I’d guess (reasons) at most 3/5 trillion ISK is made in highsec the rest is made somewhere else.
stop pretending you love incursions so much, it’s easy isk you can sleep through 120m per hour. The funny thing is, I know many, many incursion runners are null-sec alts, there are invasions in nullsec tho… whats the problem?
Here is a thought…
I have read through this thread wich is basecly whawhawha you high sec incursions runners whawhawha , but null sec blah blah blah and if you dont believe me,…numbers…
Nice, i dont care…
Here is the thing, and you may not agree, again i dont care…
One moment we have 3 high sec incrusions up and happely going about our thing,( no its most likely not your thing and thats fine)
The next we got the repspawn rate reduced to 1 whole focus, every 36 hours
Now dont get me wrong, i personally do not mind that. I like contesting, be better and if we loose, we go at it again untill we win, this is eve not world of warcraft.
Having said that, whatever the reason is( yes ive read the lore reasoning) it did come somewhat by surprise and so far there seems there is nothing we as community can do to get anything reversed or changed about it.
The one thing we can do is politly ask ccp to well repsond for one and maby come up with an idea that both ccp and the players can be happy about.
So how about this:
So far the repawn time is around 36 hours, you may by now assume that people are not pleased with the new content offerd by ccp, me included.
This is nothing like when sancha came to town
We started off with live events, wich were fun and that moved to what we now know as incursions.
How about if it has to be only one high sec up at all times, we lower the repawn timer, so we dont shipspin hours but get to do what we like best, wheter nullbear agree or not( i really dont think we should even care about that, if i feel like somethng needs to be changed in null, ill go to null, simple)
Maby make it 4-8 hours for a new high sec, it works with the lore and it may help the incursion runner calm down a little, everyone wins
I dont fly a lot in incursion fleets but its a nice place to socialise and earn money in game. Just because something doesnt contribute to you 1337 pvp nano smug gang doesnt mean its bad. Farming is ok.
