Introducing The Winter Expansion - EVE Online: Lifeblood

(Jeremiah Saken) #223

in which country it’s historically accurate? For example “jewing” in polish has very bad connotation (it means parsimonious). So I would not use that word lightly especially on international forums.

(Namaan) #224

No, that just makes the thing more farmable… You need to make it require more thought, not just more brute force.

As for High Sec stuff we have a lot of things that spawn, and just sit there… Lets get these things in motion, have them actually come and go from somewhere, make them feel more organic.

(yellow parasol) #225

oh, of course! i wrote my post under the assumption that they don’t pay bounty. silly me…

(Namaan) #226

Ah I see, so what you’re saying is only once you finish the challenge do you get the payout then?

(yellow parasol) #227

that would make way more sense, i’d think. complicated matter, hm…

(Namaan) #228

True… I really want to see all these NPC Cruisers, and Frigs coming from somewhere we can interact with… How cool would it be to have to find and engage a Carrier to clear out the Rats? Or maybe pop a special ship thats keeping a wormhole open for the pirates to enter the system… Stuff like that, have these guys come from somewhere, where the true payoff is getting to the root of the problem, and not just orbiting the symtoms for farm.

(Kalahira Sarlain) #229

That would be so awesome, @Namaan !

(Arrendis) #230

The solution isn’t ‘spawn more and make them more aggressive’ for a few reasons. First, they already spawn up to 600-something subcaps with the capital spawns on a separate counter, and they’re aggressive enough that if you’ve got an interceptor sitting 400km away (watched it happen) while your fleet is tanking the NPCs, the frigates will decide ‘ok, let’s dogpile him’ and warp right onto him.

More importantly: it doesn’t matter how many of them there are or how aggressive they are. All that does is force more of your attackers to be in logistics ships, just like in fleet PvP. They’re laser boats, so their strength is DPS, not volleyed alpha-strikes. As long as you can bring enough remote reps to match the incoming damage, and enough of a buffer tank to survive until the reps land (and again: lasers. Damage-locked to EM/Therm, use passive hardeners for the neuts), you can ignore them, completely.

And you have to ignore them, because there’s two timers in play. The first (only present on the kill, not the initial attack) is the repair timer. Sure, you can keep the repair timer paused with some of your DPS, but now you’re splitting your damage, and… the second is the ‘how long am I taking?’ timer. This matters for two reasons:

Reason 1)How many people are in your fleet? How long are they willing to sit there and shoot this thing for 2 BPCs? 200 people means at least 198 of them don’t get a BPC, even if the BPCs are immediately handed out to the fleet. If the compensation takes any other form, it’s going to be delayed. So payout’s not exactly… ‘push button, get bacon’. If it’s one guy multiboxing supers (and for the record, that was not one guy), then sure, maybe it’s worth it, but if it’s even 50-60, every 20m you’re fighting this thing is 20m you’re not out there making money some other way on that character. The longer it takes, the more it’s costing your fleet members just to show up. So they won’t.

Reason 2)The longer you’re out there doing it, the longer someone else has to come along and screw with you. And they will, if they think they can pull it off.

Between those, you want to run this thing as fast as you can. So, since you want to go fast, and there’s no reason to actually engage the rats who give no bounties and no drops themselves… why would you? Engaging them takes longer, which, as I’ve pointed out, is actively detrimental to your goals.

This is all stuff theme-park MMOs knew 10 years ago. Blackwing Lair, in WoW, was released on 12 July 2005, and by then the ‘spawn lots of adds and ENRAGE TIMER’ mechanic was already well-established in EQ raids. So while the AI on the EC is great, the structure of the EC fight… still some catching up to do.


The rats on the current implementation (the Sotiyo) pay no bounty, and drop no loot. There’s nothing to farm, by design. They don’t want people just going there and spawning limitless loot/isk and farming it for 3 weeks then killing it so it doesn’t despawn.

(Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance) #231

Let’s be balanced and blame both.

Indeed, personaly speaking, I play to switch my brain off after a hard day and immerse myself in a space themed game, not to make friends, enemies or isk.

(Namaan) #232

Ah that’s right, but with enough spawns salvage becomes the thing.

(Arrendis) #233

Salvage never becomes worth the time, especially not when compared to hunting rats that give bounties and loot.

(Kalahira Sarlain) #234

Indeed, personaly speaking, I play to switch my brain off after a hard day and immerse myself in a space themed game, not to make friends, enemies or isk.

That also sounds like exactly my style of play.

(Nykar Ellecon) #235

Ok thx for the info, I hope CCP will allow more to do with moon harvesting in wormhole space in the near future.

(Sgt Ocker) #236

Jenn aSide
That’s what I meant to link, that was a year ago, and as usual not many people were there (somehow people can complain loudly about PVE all the time but can’t seem to participate anywhere but these forums)

Personally I’d like to be involved in these sort of things, I just can’t afford to fly to the other side of the world to do it.
So my only option is to use these forums, which as you say, is more often than not, not productive as it is generally just seen as complaining. Those who can afford to spend the time and money attending fanfest and the like really aren’t representative of PVE’rs, they represent their own agendas (exactly the same as the CSM and most focus groups). Which is not to say they are wrong, they are just not able to represent “everyone”.

The average player has no voice when it comes to game design - By design.

As an example; The BR Sotiyo (coming soon to highsec in a nicely dumbed down version [and probably an even more limited reward for “the person” who loots the can first])
Fact is, CCP don’t care that many players would rather it be actual content that involves a fleet [group] engaging NPC’s that will give some reward when they die. Rather than having thousands of NPC’s that need to be totally ignored while you concentrate all firepower onto the structure, it would be better to have less NPC’s that need to be destroyed “before” or at least while the structure is being reinforced or destroyed.

At least attempt to make it something akin to pvp, rather than - shoot structure - tank NPC’s - collect reward.

Any group focused PVE needs to reward everyone who takes part, not just one individual.
Like a group setting out to destroy a player owned structure, everyone who attends is rewarded, with killmails.

If Devs can’t find a way to balance “risk vs reward” group content is not going to be “a thing”…

(Sgt Ocker) #237

Arrendis, My idea for this is in brief; Introducing The Winter Expansion - EVE Online: Lifeblood

(Arrendis) #238

Well, the principles you’re outlining there are sound: making something interesting, something that actually requires fleet v NPCs action, and offers immediate payout for the participants… I think all of that is probably exactly what CCP should be shooting for on the group PvE content, especially in HS.

I also think they need to work on more engaging and interesting solo PvE content. Wanna know a big secret? Out in null, people really aren’t exactly driven to run the BR EC, either. Group PvE content? There’s incursions, but what most of the people out in null want in PvE content is solo content.

Null miners multibox, or mine in small groups with 4-5 friends (usually both). The largest rorqual fleet in Delve? It’s one guy, and Gaara makes no secret about it. Multiboxing without input multiplexing is still possible, even in large numbers. When we’re ratting? Other than the groups that run incursions, we rat solo—to the point where people get violent toward blues who warp into the anom they’re working on and won’t leave.

If CCP wants people to want to run the FOBs, the FOBs need to scale to solo as well as groups, and they need to pay out. S’all there is to it.

(Buoytender Bob) #239

Well, you get the HS concern then. Next time Falcon notices you, please put a word in for us, the poor ignored Hisec individuals who are looking for some upgraded content that could be done solo (or not). Thanks!:wink:

(Drago Shouna) #240

Any group PVE particularly in HS will be a waste of time.

Players will get fed up with never getting the drops because you know damn well that there’ll be more than a few cloaky interceptors waiting to pounce. So players will just not bother turning up.

As more than a few have said we need true solo content but CCP are still trying to force the move to just group content and ignoring anything else. Everything over the last couple or three years has been designed to drive out solo and small corp play and I don’t sense that’s going to change anytime in the near future.

(yellow parasol) #241

small corps… small groups of people who do stuff together? :slight_smile: i don’t see how group PvE content drives out small corps made of several people, also known as groups. are you sure that your dislike doesn’t cloud your judgement? :slight_smile:

(Drago Shouna) #242

Feel free to point out new PVE content aimed at solo or small corp play, without making me laugh…