Its Own Thread

And Lo! There it was.

Only, not, so much. Because it occurs to my, @Lyra_North-Onren, that that thread isn’t the place for squabbling amongst different factions of Minmatar, either. So, this is! Because, let’s face it, that’s a topic, so it’s not off-topic.

I’d just like to point out here that I don’t consider you my enemy. You may, at times, be my opponent. Aldrith has been. Aria has been. But they’re not my enemies. I have enemies, of course…but I won’t give them the dignity of their names. They don’t deserve it.

But you? Fighting for what you believe is right, without necessarily a personal animus, or even a personal desire to cause hurt… why would you be my enemy?


I, on the other hand, am willing to say that the Ammatar Mandate is my enemy, and that if you fly loyal to it, by extension so are you. And then, with individuals like @Armast_Darkar, it gets complicated.

I would also like to point out that while I am grateful obviously that they did, it does not seem to me that the Ammatar saved the Starkmanir out of loyalty to the free tribes. They did what they did to preserve life in the face of atrocity, but that was like an internal subversion inside the Amarr Empire. The Starkmanir were kept in Darkness, and where possible integrated to the Ammatar Mandate and/or the Amarr Empire - not brought to freedom.

If not quite loyal to the Empire, these actions were more akin to the Kernherite Heresy than to actions of the truly free: stemming from a belief that individual Holders, or even the Emperor/Empress can err, but God and the Empire remain what you should put your loyalty to.

That a lot of Nefantar and Starkmanir still believe in that Faith after being shown the way out of Darkness emphasizes that impression.

She doesn’t like it being called “Kernherism”.

She prefers “Avetatism” I think.

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And thank you for that.

That’s an incredibly well adjusted stance to take on the matter. I concede that “opponent” is a better description for our relationship, at least in my case as well.

It’s tough. This is also perfectly reasonable. I’m willing to say that the Republic is my enemy, but I think that those loyal to it are by in large just my opponents. I think in order for a group or individual to be my enemy, they need to have bad intentions and I think the Republic has bad intentions whereas most of its loyalists are trying to do the right thing. They’re just, in my view, wrong about what that may be.


This is largely semantics. If your definition of ‘enemy’ requires that the person is immoral on an individual, personal-fate level, then I guess most people are not enemies of anyone. Personally I feel that is such a narrow definition that it renders the term meaningless.

The concept of “opponent” as someone who works for the enemy but means well seems superfluous. What is ‘the enemy’ if not the people it consists of? I feel that opponents and rivalries belong to competitions, between friendlies - not to wars.

EDITed to add: and most ‘wars’ among capsuleers are competition, or rivalry, rather than war.

Most. Not all.

The key difference for me is a willingness to seek resolution. That seeking may be futile, it may be utterly in vain, but if someone is willing to acknowledge that my issues have merit, and try to work with me to find a solution, then they are not my enemy, even if events conspire to put us on opposite sides in the bloodshed.

Someone who will accept only capitulation, or who hates me for what I am, who will never truly be willing to work toward resolution, even if they make motion toward it as part of their planned aggression… those, yes, are my enemies. And I find that far more often among those who aren’t beholden to any of the empires than I do even among the Amarr.


@Lyra_North-Onren Since you actually went through the trouble of explaining I don’t feel its right to not reply. Hopefully I’ll come off more civil sounding (ya, even I looking at it again think I went a little overboard, my apologies).

Do you turn your guns towards my kin? Then you are my enemy. Hate, love, irrelevant as my personal feelings and my kins’ safety are mutually exclusive. Other aspects of this I’ll get to a little further down.

To be honest, what you do or don’t think is not my problem nor concern. I do however wish from anyone regardless of of race that they follow their own path in life. Scriptures and some idolized belief system that diverts you from actually self determination I will speak out against, as I have many times before. It is not natural, nor beneficial to anyone aside from those who tend the flock. Do I need to remind you of our people and your adopted loyalties’ shared history? I shouldn’t, nor should either side wish to repeat the atrocities of the past. We will get nowhere retracing our steps.

According to the most recent demographic info I could find (( Eve Source P47, think that’s still considered most recent )) on the empire there are 214.491 Billion free Matari and 10.712 Trillion enslaved. Never mind that difference (which truly shows the empire’s ability to cultivate man to the faith over centuries worth of time), how many holders are of Matari Descent? You say I pulled out the one corporation with such a strict application requirement, yet from the outside looking in it looks like a reflection of Amarrian society. I see no Matari in any position of power (if power isnt a thing or a sin or what have you, its rather convenient those described as “lesser races” within the scriptures that guide you generally seem to not have that no matter how devote they are. Yes I am aware of the current Empress, I simply don’t see evidence of her people and my kin as being held at the same standards) Call that untrue if you will, but that’s what I see. If there is evidence to the contrary I actually would love to see it, I actually like being proven wrong as at least I learn something.

Na, I don’t dismiss people, only a fool does.

I’ll go one step further and say I don’t wish dark years in your life and am actually happy you have gotten over them.

Aside from the most recent events my corporation has never had SFRIM red, including even having them considered as non-engagable on fleets I’ve run in the past. They aren’t actually bad people, though with recent politics in mind we are at odds and I can not say the public policies of the organization itself are something i am a fan of.

The only thing I can say is did your god get you out of those dark times or did you? Did you cause those dark times or did the word of your god? You seem to put very little credit towards yourself, nothing makes you you. Your god may have created you but it also gave you free will. Why? So you can ignore what I would imagine would be its greatest gift of all and seek its guidance through life or to use that gift and carve your own path through life? It seems odd to give the gift of free will and expect it to not be used, why give it in the first place, ya know?

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And to respond to something you said in the other thread…

This is complete hogwash. What is true is that True Amarr have twisted interpretation of Scripture to claim that faith and God’s love are inherited through blood, but that is the lies of man, not God.

If it can be corrupted so easily why is it the law of the land? I do have to commend you for actually bringing that, well, truth to light I just don’t understand why it’s not a more common sentiment. I’ll venture as far as to say there could be a god, it could be truly loving, ect. It could even be something I could see myself viewing as something other than abstract thought. Though if it is willing to allow it’s message to be perverted as it is, it’s not promising.

Why is Shakor in power in the Republic?

Because the people in power, have power, and they want to keep it that way. Fixing systemic problems isn’t easy.

Because it is our test to make His gift deserving. It’s our challenge, our journey. You talk about the importance of free will, well part of that is allowing us to fail or succeed on our own merits.


Ok, semantics, but here goes.

I am working from the conceptualization of [untranslatable in sufficient detail, roughly: family > clan > ally > rival > outsider > enemy], where to be a [rival; opponent; competitor] there needs to be some common ground or interest to begin with. An [outsider; neutral; unknown] is neutral to that common interest, an [enemy; devil; abomination] is actively working to destroy it.

Sure, and within that framework, your use of those terms makes perfect sense.

I feel like I just start from a wider sampling of potential ‘common ground or interest’. We’re all people. We don’t want to suffer or die. We don’t want those we care about to suffer or die. Most of us want to try to be decent people, who want to see others prosper.

Samira wants all of our people brought into the ‘light of god’. I happen to think that’s an actively bad idea, because of a number of the implications—not the least of which is unwavering obedience to whatever butt is sitting on the Imperial Throne, but also because it means the complete obliteration of our culture, our ways, our own beliefs… and there’s no real evidence that their beliefs are any more right than ours.

There are members of other Nullsec organizations who have declared that my organization must be destroyed. They cloak their motivations in things like arguing for the health of New Eden and its civilization, but if that were true, they’d be the ones embracing industrializing and building up infrastructure and population centers, rather than obsessing over going places to find people to kill. Their true motives are simple: years ago, they were powerful, and they used that power to abuse and cow everyone they could.

And then we hurt them. We broke that power, and the war has never truly ended. For all their lofty rhetoric, their goals are our annihilation, and their vengeance, nothing more.

Samira is not my enemy. They are. Both, in their way, seek the obliteration of something I hold dear. Samira is simply someone I disagree with, even as I believe she is trying to do what she thinks is best for people. My enemies… are not. They seek only to do what is best for themselves.

The Amarr who are my enemies are the ones who seek only to do what is best for them. What is good for ‘the Amarr’. Amarr who truly do believe that they are seeking what is best for the Minmatar within the Empire… they are opponents. They need to be defeated. But they are not my enemies. We simply disagree… in potentially fatal ways.


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