[KYBERNAUTS] Investigating the truths of Raravoss as EDENCOM evacuates from the system

Fiction Portal Intergalactic Summit
43

That is simply not true. I have not destroyed a single civilian ship during this invasion and all reports from planets are inconclusive at best as to what has happened with Triglavian ground troops. Most have stopped short of large population centers after destroying military targets.

Even the reported “orbital bombardment” specifically references a dreadnaught attack on a military base after it previously fired upon a ship in space.

It is even believed that some civilian groups on liminal planets have become trig-sympathizers.

Please do not make claims about my personal actions during this invasion without knowledge and I will refrain from doing so about you.

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44

You did.

Every single life lost defending from a hostile invading force is exacerbated by the actions of each and every kyber. Every life lost in panics among the planetary populations, you bear responsibility for, because you helped cause the conditions for those panics. Every innocent life lost when Trig ships inconsistently blow up evacuating civilians is on your hands.

Each and every one of you bears some of the responsibility for all of those lives. Because of your personal actions. Because of what you chose to do. Nobody here would be at all shocked at any accusation you might level against me, so feel free to come up with the best you’ve got.

It doesn’t change the fact that yes, Zorya ordered you to be an accomplice to mass murder, and you gleefully leapt to go walkies with your master.

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45

And what of all of the non-combatant lives you have ended destroying structures for your bloody war? I see you are a member of Goonswarm so are you not also responsible for the loss of literally countless lives over the years? Do you not share responsibility for those actions? Are you in a place to judge others when your hands are also covered in blood as fresh as the spring rain?

Granted - I do not believe that about you. In fact, since I know nothing about you I would be willing to discuss and learn more of your past, your motives, your dedications before I make any assumptions. But it sounds like from our initial exchange you may be unwilling to get to know anyone outside of your ideals. And for that I will not fault you.

I will admit to the fact that lives have been lost - even innocent ones at that. I never said the Triglavians were good or peaceful, quite the opposite in fact. I merely offered that not all who ally with the collective would willingly drop bombs on a civilian populace.

If you must hear the words that my actions do have consequence, I will submit and agree with you because that is war. But, I will not make allowances for those who judge others solely for their allegiance. To reduce the complexities of morals to such an arbitrary choice would be to remove everything and anything that makes us “human” for whatever that word stands for in our case.

46

As I said:

Let’s run down the ones you opted for…

Moreso, even, than most Goons. I’ve been in leadership. I’ve helped shape campaigns. I’ve designed the very tools our line members use to kill people. I’ve lit the cynos so our fleets could jump or bridge in and kill people. I’ve kept our line members alive while they kill people. And I’ve given orders for others to do every one of those things and more. Am I responsible for the lives they took while I kept them alive? Am I responsible for the lives they took using the tools I designed?

Absolutely.

I am absolutely responsible for every act of violence I supported, enabled, encouraged, and even ordered. “I didn’t pull the trigger myself” is the defense of a craven, pitiful weakling, who cannot bear to acknowledge the things they have done, and the cost in human lives that they have caused. Every one of those deaths, I have to live with. Some are harder than others.

I am responsible for every killing I actively worked to make possible. And you are responsible for every killing you actively worked to make possible. The difference is: one of us talks about morals, and the other still possesses enough of them to admit her culpability.

Then you are either a fool, or a coward who needs so desperately to hide from his own actions that he blinds himself to the monstrosity of others.

As for this nonsense…

It is only a war because you and those like you have made it one. If you had all stood with the people willing to defend the helpless against unwarranted aggression, this invasion would have choked on its own arrogance. Instead, you chose to ally yourself with things that bought your conscience with shiny trinkets and the promise of new toys, or the chance to lash out at a system everyone knows is flawed, but which at least tries to protect people.

‘It’s a war’… more pathetic mewling from someone who needs to rationalize away the responsibility for what they’ve caused.

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47

So, what, you require an absolutely pure history with no ties to any organization that’s inflicted atrocities?
Fine. Here the hell I am. I defy your Collective’s invasions as cruel injustice and impacting the wrong people.
Now I’ve been hearing a lot about this potential Drifter threat. I’ve even opened a discussion about it. But I ain’t seen a lick of action on that front from your pals.
Actions speak louder than words. Twenty-seven system-wide mass extinction events speak louder than trash-talking some J-sec weirdos who ain’t even paying attention.
Put up or shut up.

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48

I have never hidden from my actions.

There are facts, and then there is everything else. You made the distinction between “They did” and “You did” - you separated my actions from theirs. I merely made a statement saying that not everyone allied within the collective would willingly kill civilians at command. The fact that civilian lives were and are being lost is something I very intentionally made note of in my original statement. I even said that I believe the benefits will outweigh the negatives (again acknowledging responsibility). You have chosen to pick and choose which parts of my statement to acknowledge so you can justify your attack.

The malice in your words demonstrates to me that you are incapable of rational or intelligible discussion - and must therefore resort to Ad hominem arguments to break your “opponent” down without making a point.

My entire point is that those that call the Triglavians inherently EVIL and paint the Empires as “the good guys” should be more willing to look within their own establishments before making such claims. I never once made a claim that I am the moral high ground. You argue that I have, though conveniently left that out of your multitude of quotes (because I didn’t say it). The only thing I said about morals was that for someone to call everyone allied with an establishment evil without looking at each individual - that would remove everything that it is to define what is moral.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that this conversation is probably fruitless because you are not willing to actually read and engage with someone’s words and instead already have your mind made up about attacking someone on a personal level.

49

The only person making this contention is you. No one here is arguing that the empires are the “good guys”. This argument merely distracts from any debate of the issue of the Triglavians invasion. Nothing the empires have done could possibly justify the forced conversion of these civilian populations, nor the stars which facilitate their livelyhoods.

We have not observed the behavior of some benevolent liberators of slaves. The Triglavians fire on unaligned pilots, freighters, explorers, scientists, relief efforts, refugees, and diplomats. Even if a Kybernaught soloy focused their efforts on military targets, if the Triglavians take over a system their wereposts fire on civilians. I’ve listened to Kybernaut comes, every kill by a werepost is celebrated.

That’s why I joined this conflict for edencom. I admit to a violent past, but I turned my life around. For years I was a pacifist, exploring wormhole space alone. I had ignored the Triglavians utterly until shortly before Raravoss was invaded. I had only just volunteered to help the neutral observation of the Triglavians behavior due to the huge number of potential target systems. It was only when I watched with my own eyes the Triglavians massacre the scientists and refugees that joined the fight.

50

I do not detract from that issue. I admit to bloodshed and violence. I admit to accepting the consequences of allowing liminal systems to happen. You say you have not seen the benevolent liberators - and I say I have not seen mass extinctions and conversions. Does that mean that either or both of them are or are not happening? It could be both. We certainly know that civilians are also forming up to side for the Triglavians and I would bet that it isn’t just the maniacal and murderous joining their ranks.

There are many factions within the collective (though there are three primary clades), and they each operate differently. And if you are referring to Swarm’s comms - then yes there are certainly more bloodthirsty Kybernauts seeking to murder for fun. I would and do condemn that action just as I would from any other. In our fleets - we have solely attacked military targets, research Triglavian technology, and await the upcoming changes for liminality. Let me be clear - that does not mean we are innocent either. Only demonstrating that different factions within the group have different goals and do not all operate under the exact same rules.

My only intention is to open a line with the other side when others have been unwilling. To discuss what is happening, for better or worse. To get to the bottom of this mystery. I understand you have your side and I have mine. I am not trying to change that, or justify my actions to anyone. I merely offered my story to provide a single example of someone’s reasoning for joining the Kybernauts (not as an exhaustive list either).

But there does seem to be a lot of misinformation about and I prefer to keep the air clear.

51

This claim is unsupported by anything but Triglavian propaganda.

While we have ample evidence that any civilians who attempt to resist Triglavian conquest are massacred, we do not know what happens to those who submit. Any support shown by occupied populations in Triglavian media, following such massacres must be considered under duress.

52

The SCOPE is now a triglavian propaganda machine?

Where is that evidence?

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53

You know, it’s a neat trick you tried there, with your ‘you made the distinction between’ routine. But you know, your whole response to me there was about trying to get me denying that I’m responsible for what I’ve enabled, to create an equivalency between us that you could hide behind. Except I am responsible, and I acknowledge it. So that didn’t work, and you had to try something else, moving the goalposts with your ‘you pick and choose’ crap.

No, you didn’t willingly drop bombs on a civilian population. And I didn’t say that you did, now did I? Nor did I start saying things like ‘inherently EVIL’. In fact, let’s go back and look at who brought questions of morality into it… oh, look, that was you with your ‘reduce the complexities of morals’ nonsense.

Nor did I judge you ‘solely for your allegiance’. I judged you for your actions, and for what you chose to enable. If you’d said ‘hey, I didn’t know, and after they started consuming stars, I changed my mind’ that’d be something. But you didn’t. You went right on helping them. You knew they were hurting people, and you kept helping them.

That’s part of what I’m judging you for. Not your associations, but your actions. The rest of it? The rest of it is this pathetic insistence that noooo, you couldn’t bear any responsibility. That you and your friends may have been essential to the Trigs’ ability to force civilian populations to evacuate and then get shot, but nooo, you’re not to blame. Not even one little bit.

That is the rest of what I’m judging you for. Because that is weak. And trying to justify it as ‘war’ when that, too, is only because you chose to make it so… that’s contemptible. And all your misdirecting, all your attempts to muddle the matter, they don’t change that. That’s not an ad hominem, either, it’s a judgment. I judge you to be contemptible because of your actions, and your refusal to take responsibility for the things you caused.

And yes, as a result, I believe you to be weak, and cowardly, and pathetic. And I believe that, and call you that, based on your actions. You, as an individual.

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54

Very well.
You could have vastly simplified all this with an admission of wrong and expressing a desire to make things right, or at the very least to give the deaths of twenty-seven stars some actual meaning.

On what basis? There has been no solid information on any benefits beyond the Collective’s benefit. You’ve speculated that the Collective intends to engage the Drifters. There is no discernible link between these twenty-seven stars and a plan to defeat the Drifters.

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55

To be a hateful person is certainly your right. Your contempt has been clearly demonstrated and acknowledged.

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56

The Scope didn’t support those claims merely passed them along from pro-Triglavian sources with that caveat.

Here’s evidence:
The Scope
Galactic Hour News Roundup
Galactic Hour News Roundup

At 1:10 The scope reports that the surface spaceports of Raravoss are now “clearly lifeless” we’ve heard nothing from these underground settlements since this report. In fact we’ve seen similar results from all civilian planets that show significant military resistance.

In the same report “It is speculated that Triglavian Doctrine takes a total war approach, leading to eradication when they are challenged by serious opposition.”

Triglavians fight a police force, N.B. this occurred after the fall of the system

  • Hyasyoda Corporate Police Force Leads Resistance in Kaunokka as Battles Rage Between Caldari Defenders and Triglavians on Second Planet

This has now been borne out. Civilians who resist (seriously) are massacred.

As for civilians who surrender, for example in the Federation.

Evidence of coercive Bioadaption

  • New Reports from Vale System Include Audio-Visual Capture of Triglavian “Bioadaptation” of Fourth Planet’s Population
  • Field Expedition Team on Vale IV Claims “Triglavian Interactions with Locals Appear Coercive But Not Violent”

Note that we have a “Audio-Visual Capture” and reports coming from Field Expedition teams. They even say “Coercive But Not Violent” not the sort of thing you’d see in Federation propaganda.

As for the claims of civilian support for Triglavians:

  • Caldari Resistance on Sakenta III Reportedly Collapses Due to “Infiltration by Triglavian Sympathizers”; Situation on Sakenta V Unclear

  • Reports of Triglavian “Biological Interventions” Mount from Conquered Systems, including Arvasaras, Kaunokka, Komo, Nalvula, Sakenta and Vale

  • Pro-Triglavian Groups Claim Populations of Final Liminality Systems are “Being Given the Means to Prove Themselves and Join the Flow”

  • EDENCOM Command Dismisses Claims of Triglavian Sympathizers as “Repugnantly Disingenous Propaganda Masking Grotesque Atrocities Against Our People”

Note “Reportedly”, and “Pro-Triglavian Groups Claim”. So the issue of civilians joining the Triglavians voluntarily is at best in dispute. If its even possible to do anything voluntarily after being occupied by a foriegn military. The sources for such claims are explicitly Pro-Triglavian.

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57

So now expecting someone to acknowledge their responsibility for the things they make happen is hateful?

These deflections of yours get flimsier and flimsier. Can’t you even make a coherent case for why you shouldn’t be held accountable for the things you caused?

I mean, since we’re ‘investigating the truths’ here.

58

Have to say, this idea that “CONCORD and the four major powers are not without sin, so they don’t get to criticise the Triglavians” is probably the ultimate evolution of the whataboutery and but-ery that has characterised this argument.

Still just as laughable.

59

Retroactive Communication Logs, 5 October YC122 - Section I
–Commander Faro Haraun, Team One - 11 Members
–Commander Ageia Zauran, Team Two - 24 Members

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1800 hrs - Team One
“Making final approach. Team One, splitting off to land at Port Sarum. Team Two is moving toward the settlement. Both are as visibly wrecked here as they are from space. Over.”

1811 hrs - Team Two
“We’ve landed at the southern side of the settlement, in the shadow of Ur-Sarum’s administrative tower for the whole system. It’s totally silent out here - there’s nobody visible. Team moving in full to secure admin tower before splitting toward settlement center and underground entry. Lots of wreckage in the way there, but our MTAC should be able to lift the major parts out of the way if we can’t find a way in.”

1816 hrs - Team One
“The port is as much a graveyard as Commander Zauran reports the settlement to be. This place was unquestionably destroyed by orbital bombardment. Unloading MTAC and setting up mobile material analysis lab now. Team member Buaun reports bodies under some of the most nearby wreckage. Investigating, over.”

1822 hrs - Team Two
The sound of many footsteps is heard.

“Team Two entering admin tower lobby now. Everything is in disarray, and the lobby is smashed up. There’s a layer of dust on everything - no one’s touched anything in here for some time. There are signs of a struggle - some dried blood on the floor behind a smashed entrancedesk window, blunt trauma - not the type of weapons the Trigs usually use in ground fights. Continuing into the building - we’ll secure each floor as we move toward the top office of the Holder.”

1851 hrs - Team One
Loud sounds of machinery and metal being moved.

“The lab is set up, and we’re moving forward with the MTAC to cut out some of the directly-struck wreckage from deeper into the ruin. We’ve also uncovered a number of bodies closer-by our landing zone - the vast majority Minmatar, followed by Triglav, and with a small scattering of Amarr thrown in. While the Amarr all seem to have suffered weapons fire, the majority of Minmatar and Triglav show evidence of having been crushed to death, in contrast. Between what Zauran reported and this, I have my suspicions as to what happened here, but we’ll wait for material analysis before we cut to any early conclusions. Continuing operation - over.”

1910 hrs - Team Two
“Team Two has secured the admin tower - all levels have been checked for contacts, but no presence noted. From what it looks like, this place was cleared out in a hurry once it became clear that the system was going to process into Final Lim, and the majority of damage done in the uprising was contained to the lower levels.”

“The team has split now, with the detachment moving out to investigate the mine entrance and underground settlement remains. I’m staying here with five other members - we’re going to see if there’s any information we can extract from the computers and security system for the admin tower.”

1921 hrs - Team Two Detachment
“Approaching the mouth of the underground settlement entrance now; signs of battle are readily apparent from this distance. Moving in.”

///Subsequent Logs Processing…

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60

Thank you for explaining your line of reasoning.

61

This entire discussion has been reduced to one side pointing out the good things Trigs have done while the other side points out the bad things while also making it clear that concord, edencom and the big 4 are no less evil. So basically it’s a wash, everybody is guilty of something. Every empire and faction has blood on their hands. Nobody is pure and innocent but then where does that leave us?

A choice between 2 “evils”, one of them brings new technology and radical change; the other fights to maintain the status quo.

I have been alive for a very long time and I would prefer to side with the group that is novel and doing what no other faction, government or organization in the history of New Eden has done before. Fortunately for me The Triglavians have the support of the most powerful coalition in the history of New Eden, The Imperium.

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62

Well there you go.

“I like novelty and shiny things” is the only functional argument any kybernaut has come up with that is honest and not delusional.

Its an infantile and morally bankrupt argument, but at least its not intellectually dishonest.