I have been accused of many things but “intellectually dishonest” was never one of them. If there are no good guys, why not pick the side that is the enemy of my enemy? Why not pick the side that is opposed to stagnation? The is opposed to slavery, both of the Sansha and Amarrian kind.
First question could be: Why pick a side at all?
If presented with two “evils”, why the hell make a pick in the first place? Are those the only options? Can a third be arranged, a fourth?
Like a roller coaster with a course that was established beforehand, people in the ride appear to feel content to feel something good or bad about it.
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You technically don’t have too but it’s the least beneficial position to be in because of how these factions calculate standing. So yes you could be neutral but then you put yourself in a position where you close more doors than you open.
As far as other choices go I have chosen to side with The Imperium and it is my view that they are one of the only “Good” factions in this galaxy.
If the primary reason for alignment is power, does it really make a difference the side who has more?
@Xenuria : You’re being intellectually dishonest. There. Now you have been accused of that, by someone with quite a lot of direct experience dealing with you, in fact. Never use that line again, or I’ll point this occasion out to accuse you of regular dishonesty, too.
Maybe nobody is pure and innocent, but ‘it’s ok that I helped murder civilians because CONCORD and the empires aren’t perfect’ is, quite simply, fedo feces. Nobody was busy murdering those civilians before the Trigs showed up, and the nonsense claim of ‘they’re against slavery’ is more intellectual dishonesty when planetary populations are essentially given the choice to either spin a roulette wheel with evacuation, or become slaves to the Triglavians.
Even those civilians who were previously enslaved by the Amarr had the hope of rebellion, or rescue. Once they’re ‘bioadapted’, can they still say the same? Will any empire trust them to not have some kind of advanced Triglavian spy tech in them? Will they even be able to survive outside of Trig space/enclaves, or will the bioadaptation make it impossible for them to wander around a Republic station without their roach-suit on?
One side offers the status quo. The other offers permanent isolation and coercion. That’s not a wash.
More dishonesty. Remaining neutral closes exactly the same number of doors it opens: 0. It’s the same as if you’d joined EDENCOM and pitched in. You have to choose to open the Trig door, and doing so closes the EDENCOM door. In every configuration, the 3-position switch remains an even choice, until and unless the empires (as they should do) close those doors for kybers, as well. Then it’s pretty clearly a case of 1 of those 3 decisions opening one door, while closing five.
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those specific ones?
no.
well, unless you count the occasional sansha incursion, slave purge, pirate activity, industrial waste pollution, etc
and that is why most baseliner don’t trust capsuleers…
I mean, if less than a lifespan bring you to the “boring” part of immortality that you would jump at the first new thing before knowing anything about them then what will you do in a few decades?
centuries ?
@Morgana_Tsukiyo well said, it’s a pleasure to read you, thanks you.
As a neutral myself, dedicated to understand what is happening, both side look they already have set their mind and decided not to listen to anyone that is not on their board.
and when one side try to reach the other in a diplomatic manner, it always end up with a slap.
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That’s true, there are known evils that beset humanity. And humanity is, to one degree or another, working to address them. But if we’re counting the Sansha incursions as the kind of evil that we all know they are, why view the Trigs as less evil? The Sansha show up and lay claim to thousands, tens, or even hundreds of thousands of people (depending on how long it takes to drive them back). The Trigs do it to entire star systems.
Well, first, the Kybers don’t really have the standing to attempt diplomacy here. They’re not the ones driving the train, and they can’t offer any kind of assurances or concessions. They’re just the lapdogs.
Second, it wasn’t him reaching out that got slapped down, it was him refusing to accept any responsibility for the consequences of his actions. If someone’s going to reach out and say ‘hi, I’m completely without fault in this knee-deep bloodbath I helped make’, I’m gonna kick him in the balls just as hard and as often as I can—not for reaching out, but for being such a frelling moron.
Do you have any proof that the “coercion” by the Triglavians is any more or less of a force than the rules and governance pressed on baseliners by CONCORD?
That statement is false, murder is a common crime that civilians inflict upon one another. Unlike us they stay dead and have no recourse. The bioadaptive technology is a futuristic form of health care that the big 4 would never have provided or paid for. The Infrastructure upgrades that the Triglavians are installing on some planets is also something the empires wouldn’t justify the funding for much less the effort to construct.
At present we do not have answers to these questions. We cannot yet say for sure what these suits do other than Keep you alive and healthy in multiple environments. Information is being kept from us by the same people who told you to take up arms against The Triglavians. If they had evidence of ill deed it would benefit them to share it.
I am much older than my official records would indicate. I do not side with the Triglavians out of being bored but rather the desire to bring about radical change to a world that has seen far to little of it under the yoke of the big 4. The Empire failed to protect us from the Drifters if the Triglavians can succeed where CONCORD failed than they will have earned the support of the Amarr people.
as of yet
we, don’t know. and treating the trigs as one monolithic entity is as wrong as treating any other faction as one.
they claim it as much as minmatars would claim all minmatars slaves.
the elder war was not exactly a peaceful march to free slaves.
they attacked concord after all.
and what about a certain leviathan being thrown on caldari prime ?
(I took only those two example, but the list could be quite long)
that too, we don’t know…
unless you have proof of what you say, it’s not a good idea to think it can only be “for the greater good”
after all, the Sister of eve do work with the rogue drones and the drifters, and yet they are known for being a “force of good”…
still sound like boredom. One somewhat due to an era of relative peace and prosperity, but still.
CONCORD doesn’t turn the stars black and put you into a position where you can either risk being killed in space, or try living on a planet that will soon be uninhabitable unless you buy CONCORD!™ brand… everything… for the rest of your life. And, you know, maybe even stick a brain slug in your head, because we can’t even rule that out.
The statement was referring to outside action upon a collective noun. As such, it remains true even if, among the billions of members of the set, members of the set were inflicting that condition upon one another.
We stay dead, too. We just get replaced by another in the series. You are not immortal, Xenuria, you are mass-produced and disposable. You’re a printed page, and if someone burns you to ash, they’ll just print another.
Well, to start at the tail of that: nor would they have needed to, since the stars’ energy output wouldn’t be decreasing.
But we don’t know enough about what bioadaptation actually does to someone to know if it’s a ‘futuristic’1 form of health care… or a goo-based version of Sansha implants. We know the Trigs opposed the Sansha because the Sansha compromised a Trig, so the 3 minds inside the Trig agreed to self-immolate. Did the meat-body have any choice in the matter? Were the other two minds in direct communication with remote support?
For all we know, those two minds were entirely digital constructs, with no independent life of their own to be concerned about, and present in distributed form across the entire Triglavian collective. Without a lot more understanding of the nature of bioadaptation and just what the Trigs really are, no, I’m not ready to call something inflicted on baseliners ‘health care’.
It would be like enslaving someone and forcing them to work underwater, then calling surgically-grafted gills ‘healthcare’.
Again, because they’d have no need to install that infrastructure. If they did, they would.
You know who does have comprehensive and complete data on not just the suits, but also on the entire process of bioadaptation itself?
The Triglavian Collective.
But they’re not sharing that info, either, now are they? Are they making even a single effort to actually share technology with the kybers, let alone the rest of us? Or are they just handing out a few shiny toys without giving anyone the means to understand how those toys work, or even what they really do?
I mean, if you’re going to try to claim CONCORD should be suspect because they’re withholding information, I got bad news for you, Xenuria. CONCORD’s about a billion times more open and transparent than Zorya Triglav.
I get that you want to bring about radical change. But wouldn’t it be nice to know whether you’re attempting to bring about radical improvement, or working to bring needless, pointless calamity upon trillions of people? Shouldn’t that be the sort of thing you figure out before you start?
At this time, the Triglavians have presented multiple factions working in concert toward a shared goal. We have observed this in their actions and their communications. This means ‘multiple factions working in concert toward a shared goal’ is part of the set of observed data.
We have no evidence of mutually-exclusive goals, or other conflicts among the factions other than perhaps competitive rivalry. We have no information that would cause us to infer the existence of those conflicts. Thus, we cannot assume those conflicts exist, nor can we make any claims of knowledge regarding how those conflicts might be addressed, exploited, or otherwise factor into our interactions with the Triglavian Collective.
As a result, our actionable position has to be that until and unless we see evidence, direct or indirect, that there is a way to treat one faction differently than the others, and be treated differently by one faction than the others, we will treat them all the same. That doesn’t mean making assumptions that there are no conflicts, no differences. It does, however, mean not acting like those conflicts and differences must be there, if only we could find them.
It’s dishonest to imply that the living conditions for baseliners on all these worlds was par or even close to healthy.
no, but it was livable without need for specialized body modifications.
I didn’t say there couldn’t be improvements made. I said it wasn’t needed. Obviously, people could live there, because people live there. They might not be thrilled about living there, but you know what? They still manage to, you know, live there.
And how is the current situation different?
they are forced to make a choice
If they don’t submit to bioadaptation, they can’t live there. That’s what happens when the stars stop providing massive amounts of heat and energy, you know.
Or if they don’t pay taxes.
Yes, paying taxes is totally the same as bioadaptation.
One of them—to the best of our knowledge—inflicts permanent biochemical changes to your body.
The other contributes to the maintenance and upkeep of the society whose investments in infrastructure and services you benefit from.
Totally equivalent. Gettin’ pretty weaksauce here, X.
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you are free to share or not my opinion, but I think that at some point, one must admit the limits of an argument and concede a point.
you can’t seriously compare paying taxes (and a possible NOT DEATH sentence if failed) and bio adaptation when we don’t even know what the bioadaptation actually is…
I spoke to some kybernauts that have actual good reasons to side with the collective, even if I do not share them. But they also admit that they don’t know the extent of what joining the triglavian mean and to what it will lead.
What is done is done, and only the triglavian have (maybe) the power to reverse it without destroying the stars because, as much as EDI members would like it to be true, it is not the case.
Maybe rather than bickering about the possibly good intent of an unknown process of bio adaptation and a sterile comparison of who is the meanest in the cluster.
maybe try to help to prove your point by helping refugees and organizing a joint evacuation process.
Use the kybernaut standing to evacuate people willing to evacuate.
Use your wealth to fund relief efforts.
Find places where they can settle maybe?
But in the end: don’t force people.
that is the path of evil, whatever the intention behind it.
at least it’s my opinion.
I must go back to my lab, trying to figure what they are doing to the stars…
Because the previous situation had a sun capable of sustaining the local ecosystem and locals could utilize existing flora and fauna. The drastic drop in the suns’ output is a catastrophic mass extinction event.
You’re complaining about being attacked for your actions, saying that you’re no worse than the Empires. That a neutral, non-loyalist stance closes doors. That is, quite simply, a metric ton of livestock manure. I can say that with complete confidence because that is the path I travel, because of the way I feel about the Empires.
I have always stood by my code of ethics and morals. My conscience stops me from working for an Empire exclusively or supporting their wars. I have done security work for them, but have stopped since. That same conscience compelled me to fight with all I had to keep any other stars from suffering the same fate as Raravoss.
Despite the absolute loathing I have for the results of your actions, that same conscience compels me to also try to build bridges. Bridges need foundations.
One of the truly ironic things is that, while I condemn your actions, I’ve actually defended your motivations in discussions within EDI. I understand wanting something better than the Empires. So, start showing us something better.
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