Obviously we have differing opinions on the subject.
p.s. Btw, the reason we have a difference of opinion is because you are wrong.
Tell that to all of those who manage. All those in the past, present and future. You are in a minority and it does not matter if you want to believe that you are not.
Read the bit about LINKK.
You might want to detail names of present corps that are managing to grow in hisec to really make the point.
Your point being?
It even mentions that wardecs were only a minor nuissance.
Education, I would like to speak to them actually as part of my understanding on how they managed to grow and thrive under continuous war decs.
It said minor nuissance but then follows up with this:
But these smaller skirmishes came to an end as Lin Kuei began to grow. The 300 members of LINKK became a target of constant wardec harassment by the larger pirate groups. Due to the piratesâ tendency to flee from fair fights and camp primary trade routes, LINKK and SubâZero found their efforts to build towards null starting to stall as more wars came in.
and in the section just under:
The corp leadership continued to look for other opportunities until one night Aze stumbled into the Talking in Stations discord. He discussed the wardec system and how its mechanics have broken, and the true frustration of trying to grow a community but being hamstrung by the highsec mechanics with Matterall, Sullen Decimus, Dirk MacGirk and others. After a month of war in, Aze told them he was watching a large majority of the playerbase of SubâZero go inactive, most citing the wardec system and cowardly opponents.
It was clear something had to change By camping trade lanes and running from fair fights when presented to them; the war dec system just provided a cheap way for large groups to grief new players and the organizations that cater to them. Aze asked âWith such a system in place, how do new groups grow independent of renting or joining a blob?â
PS They left hisec th May 2017 so pretty recently within what I would call the current war dec environment.
PPS This is not a trick question, I want to have some names to help me in my understanding of hisec, because what you suggested is largely against what I saw, and I left hisec about 14 months ago.
- Expecting fair fights is nonsense.
- When they were cowards who hid, how did they manage to stall growth?
There is information missing, or I fail to see it due to 0330 am. 
I have no names. If it really was that big of an issue, weâd see far more people complain about it both here and on reddit. We do not! This behaviour is not new. We do not know why they were wardecced continuously. We can not ignore the possibility that some assholes in their corp simply continuously âaskedâ for it, which is not uncommon at all! I had to âcorrectâ a few of that kind myself in the past.
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I am not discussing or debating what they said and their feelings, the player concerned is part of tha war dec discord and I can easily pick his brain directly, what I am after is the names of present successful entities so I can understand further, so if you donât mind detailing a few names I would be grateful.
Added an edit.
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You have no names, OK, but if you do find some, please evemail them to me.
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I can tell you how to find them. You look for recruiting corporations, wardec them and contact their CEOs. Then you can observe their reactions and you can try convincing them into a war, because you mean well.
I did this. It will help you getting a better feeling for the people out there. First hand experience is of utmost importance!
Another option would be a purchasable wardec immunity, with cost scaling with the size of the corp buying it.
Newish, smaller corps could purchase it to take the heat off for a week every now and then, if they can scratch the isk together.
I would agree things can get pretty difficult for a newish/smaller corp that gets wardecced by several active/larger corps at once.
Not saying Im for this, just putting it out there.
I am currently in nullsec as explained, so canât actually do that hence why I asked.
in terms of your points in answer to the additional paragraphs that I detailed, the answer to you question was already there.
That was just the response of some of his player base in terms of not logging in, a trend that I have seen too.
If your comments were aimed at suggesting I agree with what their feeling, let me tell you that I logged in and did stuff during war decs and used my out of corp alts to move stuff. However it did get in the way of my AG activities as that was in and around the main pipes, but one can hardly expect to do that with no issues during war decs can you.
- Agree
- I found that most pipe campers with in GTFO ships, which got safe as soon as anything threatening arrived, it is boring as hell to play against for in your face brawlersâŚ
I would think that stalling growth is that those players were less committed or active during war decs thus making the corp less dynamic and interesting at an educated guess and that the fun gameplay of chasing GTFO ships did not entice them to get stuck in.
Iâm not a fan of newish players making corps for other newish players.
I agree the opportunity to do so should exist.
Some rare few can pull it off, once in a blue moon, when the stars align.
But for most, its not sensible to do so, and they are doing themselves and their members a great disservice.
Its much better to join established corps, learn, grow and attempt it later on.
Either that, or straight up join your new corp to an existing alliance/coalition.
New players make very bad corps/CEOs, and just end up hurting themselves and their members. They lack the experience, know-how, resources and connections.
This same thing happens in MMOs everywhere, but has more repercussions in EVE.
If we really want to stop player attrition due to crap corps, and assume that bad noob run corps cause player attrition, then the simplest solution would be to apply say a 3-6 month account age restriction to creating a corp.
Hell, Id sign even a 12 month account age restriction for creating a corp.
Ofc that doesnt mean the account holder has any idea what they are doing, or has played even one day in the entire time, but its at least a partial barrier to bad corps causing player attrition.
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I agree with every word you said Salvos.
You probably donât hear that very often, you might want to screenshot that comment.
My thoughts also.
I watched as a group of friends (all new players) made what they thought would be their own little happy fun club with their very own happy fun house (Citadel). I then also watched as they were ripped apart and scattered to the four corners of New Eden thanks to an avalanche of War Decs from far more experienced, far better equipped veteran Corps.
As far as I know, none of them are still playing.
In other MMOs forming a Guild is just something you do because you can, because itâs nice, because people like having their own little community with their friends in it, their own chat, their own rules, a shared identity, a name, a tag ⌠a home.
Most of us have had the âsign my Guild charter, I just need 3 more members, you can be an Officer and Iâll pay you 5 gold too!â thing from excited little wannabe Guildmasters with a twinkle in their eye.
Of course in other MMOs they are free to do this unmolested and they all live happily ever after.
In EVE forming a Corp seems more akin to planting your banner on the map in Feudal Japan. Your very existence is seen as a challenge to the status quo. What to you might seem like an innocent little Hello Kitty banner blowing in the breeze is seen as a declaration that you are ready to have your face smashed in by the Veterans.
The only concern I am sure some will have, is if you stop new players making Corps until they are more experienced, you will remove a lot of food from the food chain. This could also be seen as too much hand holding for EVE.
Still, important to have a balance between too much hand holding and a mass exodus due to crap Corps formed in week 1 being annihilated by Veterans.
Too much hand holding, or no hands left to hold.
I can see the HTFU comments coming already ⌠
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That âfoodâ (as tasty noob snacks) will still exist, but you will more likely have to wrest them from the grip of an established corp.
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Its hard to argue that forbidding new accounts from creating corps is âhand-holdingâ. Its the inverse. Its the system slapping your hand away from the fire when you try to make a corp before you are ready to do so.
Iâve just seen your portrait.
Iâm leaving now to loop Aphex Twinâs âCome to Daddyâ music video, hoping to desensitize myself before I contemplate sleeping.
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Window Licker would probably work just as well.
edit: Iâd forgotten how much Come to Daddy rips on The Prodigyâs Firestarter.
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That is hand-holding.
Not literally the holding of a hand Salvos, I surely donât need to explain that a hand does not literally need to be held for something to be hand-holding.
It is guiding the noob away from the danger in the same way that (random made up example) not allowing Rookies to loot Yellow Containers because they might get shot would be. That you are slapping their hand away from the container rather than holding their hand as you walk them away from it is irrelevant.
When you allow noobs to make all the mistakes, do all the things wrong, get annihilated without warning, you are not hand-holding. When you say âNo no you cannot do that it will hurtâ you are hand-holding.
It is this, exactly this:
The HTFU crowd would of course argue that rather than slapping a noobs hand away from a fire you should allow them to get burned.
That is the way of the HTFUpper. You do the bad thing, you pay the price, you learn. You should not be protected from the bad thing by a fire guard.
The argument is not âis it hand-holdingâ because it undeniably is, but whether or not some degree of hand-holding is preferable to losing too many people.
This is the age-old EVE debate however, should the game change to accomodate the player or should the player HTFU and accept the game as it is.
Yes, and Ive always been on the incubation side of that debate.
Just as we dont allow 12yr olds to drive cars IRL, nor should noobs form corps that almost certainly will result in disaster.
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