youve already been told and shown by CCP themselves, unforgettably you cant seem to take that information onboard which tbvh is f######g hilarious.
gg 
Link?
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if you cant find it then i got news for you sonâŚ
i got 99 issues, your ineptitude aint one 
So thatâs a âno i donât have anythingâ as well then?
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Even silly null players can figure out how to use holding corpsâŚ
I didnât say it has stopped, I said it will stop. It has to⌠itâs not fun.
Pvp isnt about isk, itâs about fun, emergent gameplay, and interaction. Structure bashing 1 player corps is none of those things.
Carebears bashing them for isk⌠that might become a thing.
But itâs not the same thing.
Maybe we should check Marmites or PIRAT and see if theyâre slowing down. My guess is theyâre in that âwhy did I log in again?â period⌠but will keep going for a while.
There are always a couple positive voices saying âcome on guys, we can still do this.â
I checked the drop rate on those structures⌠it ainât great. A billion isk drop every 2nd or 3rd structure doesnât go very far when youâre dropping 50 mil for the dec and fielding 10 guys in 1 bil+ fits.
Maybe Iâm wrong, maybe not.
Good luck, have fun!
I would refer you to Toraâs comments in the CSM minutes and the war dec dev blog, but what he said was that he was actually finding it more profitable with the new structure because he was finding people more willing to pay protection money and not waste it on nothing decs.
Of course it will fall off, but it may also be due to people paying not to have their structure destroyed as we move towards only those who have the deep pockets to pay off war deckers or the ability to defend them will have structures in hisec.
However if the alliance has specific goals then it may not fall off at all.
Another thing you should note is that the killmails do not detail the amount of salvage that drops, it is a significant amount.
They just donât care if they donât own structure in hisec.
Heh. Not surprisingly. Protection rackets is what fuels the war machine. Even little devils had a protection rackets. No wonder Tora likes the fact that everyone he can Dec has a structure.
But is this a good thing? All the moaning about wardeccers have been because of blanket Decâs and hubhumping. Does this actually improve the situation?
And I have to agree with Mo, this will fade out. Thereâs a limit on how many structure bashes one can have before your own people start logging off. As they have better things to do than shooting a structure time and time again.
The ones left will be the same guys who sits at hubs, not interested in poking structures.
And just joined your crew for free targets.
It is a possibility that it ends up like that, or it could end up with regional based groups working to protect their structures. I guess time will tell.
The thing is that it isnât inherently difficult nor hard. Mo and Raz are right in that I donât have enough fingers and toes to count the amount of people from prominent groups that have stopped logging on - some moving on to other games.
The fighting and skirmishing just isnât there on a consistent enough basis⌠maybe for some of these small Wardec groups we see, but for the big ones like Pirat and Marmite itâs hard pressed. Why you ask? Well I believe itâs because they are so dominant and much more put together than your average group and when you face them itâs not a fun experience, but is mostly demoralizing. In order to win you have to play the N+1 game and batphoning for help every time to poke a structure isnât fun for anyone.
So youâre left with the prospects of making ISK as being a driver for you to endure this boring and stagnant content⌠do you think a smaller group is going to snag kills in Jita and Amarr with Pirat pushing them out? Sure you can skirt around the outsides of trade hubs and pipes or maybe even do your thing in a more isolated area, but again⌠content is dry as bones my friend.
What can help this âdry as bonesâ meta? Iâm glad you asked! I think direct conflict drivers other than the obligation to show up for a structure timer is a good start. It is annoyingly cancerous to try and pin a merc down to either gank or fight and most of the time relies on you scouting out wormholes to use as ambush points.
- Get rid of station gaming
- Allow booshing on targets where you have legal aggression (green safety)
- Change asset safety somehow (No blowing up structures for the salvage is not a viable selling point).
Thatâs a startâŚ
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Making NPC stations have the same mechanics as Upwell structures would be good.
Booshing, maybe, I am not really keen on that. That will scare people from undockingâŚ
I really think that the salvage not being known about as it is not in the killmail is a real issue, it is actually bloody good ISK.
I am not so sure that this is really a driver for the type of people I am hoping will develop. The content really should after a while come to them.
I see it as a way to force fights or at least half-way secure kills in a meta thatâs heavily favored towards bring in a position where you can always escape, or just being uncatchable. See those Nestorâs sitting inside Jita 4-4 station model with the insta-blap Loki that docks at the first sign of danger?
Itâs really not thoughâŚ
- 50m to 500m for the Wardec
- Likely not going to get a fight
- Likely not going to have â â â â drop
- Wow! A few hundred million isk in salvage!
ââ
There are groups like Wrecking Machine that are mostly structure focused that will probably never burn out, and then thereâs groups like Pirat that will always have their structure racket going, butâs itâs on the shoulders of a few people. Fewer actual members translates to more multiboxing required, leads to burnout.
But once we have the same mechanics as Upwell structures that will stop.
I would suggest that the 500m war decs are for targets flying the pipes rather than structure hits.
I think an Azbel we hit was close to 760m in salvage.
760mil in salvage???
WHOA STOP THE BANK LADS!!!
so what was your share?
/me looks at killboard
so uhm⌠760/60 = erm⌠zero?
somehow that doesnt make it worth it tbh
Salvage in terms of the PI and stuff that dropped along with what was reported in the killmail. Also as people donât tend to defend them your chances of losing a ship are pretty low so add that together it is good ISK. You have to ask yourself why all these people doing it are sitting in blinged out Leshaks for example?
Just because you have no idea does not mean that others donât. The real joy is finding those in low power as they are a lot easier.
I struggle to consider this PvP in any sense besides the fact that it annoys someone.
From a maneuver and controls standpoint, this is closer to mining than fighting.
I think this will appeal to isk motivated carebears perhaps⌠if the isk from doing this so better than mining.
I donât think there is enough fun or challenge here to get the attention of anyone who likes fighting.
That is an interesting thing to say and I am having an exchange with another player on this subject in another thread, where a freighter ganker came out with this:
Remember that this is freighter ganking, where you bump someone, hold them in position and then after checking the fit bring in what you need to blow it up by referring to a spreadsheet:
Very true for both freighter ganking and for blowing up structures owned by one man corps.
Again I donât disagree with you, but note that my replies above are detailing the additional benefit in terms of ISK. But building up ISK is just a measn to an end, if you do not use that ISK then it is a waste of time which Australian Excellence is perhaps just working out, it took him a long time by the wayâŚ
What actually interests me more about this is to control a region and develop a powerful entity or entities in hisec that can shake things up and develop meaningful content, perhaps a pipe dream in what is left of this game, but who knows.
I donât care about isk. I never did. Iâm motivated by fun, conflict, and interaction.
For that reason, I doubt we will truly agree.
As a one-time champion of can-flipping, we had meaningful conflict where players could fight over real grievances, with real anger, real fleets, and a whole lot of ârealâ⌠typically involving a dispute over an inconsequential quantity of isk.
These inconsequential quantities of isk were the cause of such howls for justice that the game was changed.
The problem is that as good as it all sounds to have mechanics that are engaging on that level, people get really upset when the antagonist wins. Yeah, theyâre all bought in⌠but they canât accept real loss of something they didnât want to wager⌠even when itâs 50k isk worth of ore.
Maybe itâs all the Childrenâs TV we watch while growing up.
The proposed structure based PvP in highsec (if built in such a way to where the conflict becomes interesting and meaningful) is like a big version of can flipping, on a much more expensive scale.
You see, I have come to believe that the problem with can flipping was that is was meaningful which simply doesnât work for those who get meaningfully victimized.
Grievances which are meaningful come with a lot of emotion and anger.
I canât see how the people who couldnât accept can flipping are going to be able to accept a mechanic that is not completely dissimilar, but with the grievance being the destruction or threatening of a structure a million times more valuable and hard to replace.
Personally, I think the issue is that meaningful conflict requires a level of injury and grievance which CCP is no longer willing to deliver yet without which the game is no longer compelling.
What I think we will see is even more safety mechanics while will further separate us, collectively, from the gritty, brutal, funny, and upsetting reality that defines the consequences of our actions. And which makes the game a numbly boring farming sim with a nice space setting.
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It is interesting in that you mentioned this:
But then were focussed on can flipping, which from what I saw was mainly mining ships or indyâs getting blown up and which were not meaningful fights. So I agree that Upwell structures have turned into a more expensive version of can flipping.
The alliance I mentioned above is actually trying to dominate a region, which is defined by making anyone who has a structure in that region pay them ISK and have an alt in that alliance doing PvP.
I think that the best conflicts are those where there is a real desire to beat the other and that is what makes it interesting, I agree. But it does have to work for both sides. it is a difficult one to get right and hisec is not in a good position.