Then people are free to go and play those games, the only “safe” place to be is inside an NPC station, anything else means possible death
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Can flipping required the miner to engage… which guys like me did encouraged by flying very weak ships.
You’re imagining I was in a nice boat, but in truth I was flying a frigate or industrial as hard as I could to win.
I had dozens of fights where I killed cruisers or larger in a frigate. Who had the unfair advantage in those? Me, because I could fly a Merlin well.?.. or the guy with the drake or gnosis who attacked with the absolute confidence that his advantage would carry him through.
I once killed a thorax and cormorant at the same time in a griffin (cormie died and came back to attack again, actually killed him twice). Did I have an unfair advantage?
I only got fights by looking so weak that they just knew they would win.
Who was the opportunist?
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I said most can flipping incidents ended up with the can flipper blowing up mining ships or indy’s, but not all.
And another thing most miners were not SP setup to use combat ships and even when they did were not experienced to do PvP.
You are trying to justify something to me based on my comment above, but I know people who do MTU baiting in AF’s against Level 4’s running BS and of course they win. You don’t have to justify anything to me, as far as I am concerned you in the Frigate with specific trained skills and PvP knowledge were very much odds on to win.
Just a heads up, the Gnosis did not exist when the old can flipping system was in place.
I know… but I killed a gnosis in a Merlin suspecting in Umokka probably a year ago. It was one of my last kills before I dumped my PvP character.
Google “Saturday morning scuffles” if you’re interested.
I’m not justifying… I’m trying to explain that meaningful content creates all those meaningful feelings you have.
You have contempt and dislike of flippers not because it was unfair, but because they were meaningful antagonists. I was trying to illustrate that.
“Meaningful” leads to anger and “the scrublord’s prayer”. We have been going away from meaningful for years.
I have very low expectations of what the structure system of war will become not because I don’t think CCP is good at game design…
I just think they can no longer stomach the emotional reaction elicited by meaningful conflict.
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I think it only is meaningful when the other side has the ability and attitude to go back at it, which is the difference between you and me. I see where you are coming from by the way. Thanks for the discussion, I hope I am not coming over as dismissive of your play, I am just looking at it from what I saw and then thinking about the context of making meaningful wars.
My killboard was always peppered with losses. You fly like I flew and and you will lose some. It’s part of it.
I fought the stereotype you’ve got in your head for years. But the game has judged my ilk by your definition… and we were barred. That conversation is truly dead.
My point is that the act of creating meaning in conflict is the act of creating grievances, anger, and those vivid emotions that we fed when we are wronged.
The last meaningful PvP in the highsec, in my opinion, is gankers. Though I personally find ganking to be simple and distasteful, it creates a grievance and real feelings. It creates a desire for revenge. If there was a meaningful way to hurt a ganker… it could and would be potentially a compelling mechanic.
But we don’t hate it because we can’t get back at gankers… we hare ganking because it is meaningful.
I.e. - A good mechanic is meaningful. A meaningful mechanic will make us feel anger when we lose because the loss and interaction have meaning. But, mechanics that make us feel angry need to be removed. Let’s remove this unnecessarily grievous mechanic… hey, the game feels stale and we don’t have any meaningful mechanics… wonder why?
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Those players who stepped their game up made it fun, that is what you were after, I understand that.
It is not a stereotype but an observation on what a lot of the content was, I recognise that you were after the meaningful fights and did find them.
I agree.
Yes, but you nailed the issue, there is no meaningful way to go after gankers, so people look at it and go nah not playing this. I suggested to CCP that -10 security status lose the ability to dock in NPC stations forcing them to use Upwell structures and thus creating a more objective based game play. Yeah I know its structures. But have you tried blapping catalysts jumping gate en masse, my internet can’t hack it…
But getting back at gankers still doesn’t fix the issue… it makes the mechanic good or balanced to me and you, perhaps.
But consider tre mechanic of the can flipper.
There has never been an easier player to get back at… your entire Corp has agro and I’m driving the belts in a battle badger… stealing everything in sight.
Can flippers weren’t dumped because it was a bad mechanic. It was a remarkably amazing mechanic that compelled people to fight in a nearly unprecedented way.
Can flipping was dumped (made risky to the point of obsoleting the mechanic) because we created a lot of anger and angst… which I’m arguing is the measure of a good mechanic in sandbox PvP.
Even if you could get back at gankers… it wouldn’t change anything at the game dev level. The anger and angst would still be perceived as a detractor instead of a playtime driver.
Ganking will go away eventually… it’s got the same stigma flipping did.
And then what will there be left to fight about?
I have a odd feeling when people talk about can flipping because it still exists, but many of the players doing it could not take being suspect generally and gave up on it, saying that can flipping was removed, in fact that is incorrect.
It is because many of the players doing can flipping where not really PvP’ing like you were, but were only after easy kills. That you still do it is all credit to you.
Oh no, I quit doing it. It’s actually not the risk that is the issue, though sometimes that can be quite awkward.
The real problem is that the population of highsec has become so unaccustomed to PvP, so risk averse, and has lost almost all necessity for can mining… that it’s no longer an effective way to get fights.
I’ve had a few successes over the years, but generally you end up duel spamming and suspect humping everything in sight for hours with no fight.
That’s the breaker. Everyone assumes you have 9 guardians backing you up not because they know, but because they heard that’s what will happen if they try PvP.
They can’t imagine that anyone would accept so much risk.
Add that to the absence of challenge in fighting actual miners… my problem isn’t that I can’t flip miners… it’s that there aren’t any pvp’ers left who do flip miners for me to fight.
Like I said, dead mechanic.
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The struggle between lion and lamb, those that are interested and prepared versus those that aren’t are aspects of the game that create an interesting atmosphere. Most of us were drawn into a game where actions meant something… where if you were crossed in some way that you can actually do something about it and that our actions or lack there of shaped the way that we and other players played the game.
Where has this gone?
I understand that FW power struggles can change the landscape with flipping systems. I understand that Nullsec has its player captured systems where we can shape the landscape, but to be honest it all feels fake and meaningless.
There’s nothing wrong with being motivated by ISK. It’s personally one of the gauges I use for how successful I am and gives me a reasonable goal - to make as much ISK from other people’s mistakes or ignorance. The problem I find is that I still try to find meaningful interactions in my methods of “farming” but it seems like most of the game wants to be left alone in a world where they can farm and not have to interact with anyone. They want it their way, and that’s a problem to me. Not because I want to endlessly impose my will on others against theirs, but because the game that drew us in advertised and boasted that it was a cause / effect world.
There’s very little identity left in Eve Online and it makes me sad.
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Mo, I’ve found better results in dealing with mission runners instead of miners. People with guns are quicker to pick them up when they feel that what is theirs is being threatened. Whenever there’s not a fleet op or if there’s just not enough active folks to get involved in some kind of hunting party my go to activity is suspect baiting mission runners.
Most of them run, the smart ones ignore you, then there’s that special few who’re gonna throw down on you over the things. I love those guys, and I will never speak ill of them for throwing down the gauntlet. Like you, I’m something of a purist. What I bring to the field is what I’m prepared to fight with. There’s no neutral logi on standby, no bowhead with a reship… Just me in my frigate/assault frigate ready to face them with what they have there.
Sometimes it’s not a good fight for me.
Sometimes I die, sometimes I fly off in a ball of fire while cackling madly.
Sometimes I burn them down and take everything they put on the table.
The mechanic isn’t dead, it’s just changed. Miners aren’t fun to fight anyways unless it’s an Orca.
Step up, kill yourself a battleship or two or ten or a hundred.
Even to this day you will still find someone who’s willing to put it all on the line for what they think is right. Protip: Russians shoot more than anyone else, with Germans being a close second.
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I have always enjoyed your posts and your point is good.
Perhaps I’ll try that sometime soon. Umokka is mostly bots I think, I did some mission theft a while back and couldn’t get a rise out of anyone.
I’m in a low SP character now and it’s refreshing… Mo had too much SP and too many nice ships. Ill learn to fly something that fits the bill and see what I can do.
I’m enjoying the challenge of playing with low skills again, but I’m mostly screwing off with wh stuff and I’m skilling to do some cloakiy hunting.
If I get a good kill I’ll let you know.
To the original point of the thread…
I can sympathize with people that complain about wars because of how few actual choices there are when facing a potential group of professional mercs… or even just people so much more prepared than you. I think structures are a bad idea, but was looking at how Faction Warfare creates conflict and even a potential sense of identity by fighting in the name of a faction.
It would be neat to see highsec wars adapt some of the mechanics and ideas from Faction Warfare. I know, I know! “L2p and just go to lowsec noob!!”
Yeah I’d rather not do that with how oppressive capitals and most of the lowsec groups that use them.
Look for a mission hub that has level 3 and/or 4 security agents.
I’ve found that for alphas the Fed Navy Comet is pretty much the top tier mission flipping boat.
Avoid Osmon. Venilen and the surrounding areas can provide content in Caldari space, Ourselaert, Egglenaert, Aunia are good for Gallente. For Amarr I’d say Mani, Pimbekka, Penirgman and Dresi and their surroundings.
A well fit incursus can zap MOST but not all battlecruisers, and a rare few battleships. The comet can take on a wide variety of battleships, but it’s not nearly as tanky as the ishkur or enyo if you can fly those. If you’re loving low SP, then I can’t recommend the Comet enough.
Most people will run. Many will ignore. However, that guy who redboxes you? Yeah, he’s your special friend for the day and you’ll be in for a real good time.
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Also Lustrevik in Heimatar, multitude of level 3 and 4 agents there and a couple of hubs within a few jumps for resupply or more things to shoot at.
Simela is probably pretty good too, people blitzing level 3 SoE missions in Battleships all day long. That said, most don’t bother about the loot so thievery is an option for the iskies.
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Welp. Wars are now completely avoidable by simply not anchoring a structure.
By doing that thing a corp declares that they are willing to accept all that comes with it.
Nobody is stopping anyone from planting their flag and saying ‘this is my yard’. However, by doing so they accept that someone, anyone and even everyone may challenge that.
Prior to wars being linked to structures in space it was super easy to not lose ships, you just moved out of your normal area and did stuff… keep your eyes on local and move if red comes in. It’s that simple…
The cries against come from those who feel fecking oppressed by the notion that they may have to actually get out of their chair in order to preserve their own existence. Why feel pity for such?
Well not entirely… we have a system now where your 1-man she’ll corp can plant the flag and grant access to their entire war-immune corp. They can choose to assist in the war if they feel it’s a threat they can contend with or they can write off the undefended structures as an operating cost.
I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be an easy way out or an option that doesn’t hurt as much, but completely removing the chance to be interacted with with is very anti-Eve.
I can sympathize with them because I know how cancerous the meta and current state of wars are. I know how it feels to be in VMG and Pirat and to desperately want to fight Marmite, but there’s too many loopholes and slippery surfaces. Too many layers of control where your only reasonable hope of procuring such content is to require immense time and dedication that it’s just not worth it at that point. Why should direct conflict in wars be so hard?
I don’t feel sorry for the idiot flying his freighter during war, getting caught. I feel sorry for the sentiment that there’s really not a whole lot you can do against high SP characters flying blinged ships with a legion of alts… among other advantages. It’s a meat grinder is all.
I get that. I’m just saying that it’s easy to avoid them. It’s much harder for them to come after you than it is for them to simply unload on you when you mosey right down the path that they always lurk on. If they find you, moving fixes it because of inertia. You are small and easy to move, they are large and require more effort… and if you are not where they want or expect you to be, then it takes even more effort for them to try to hunt after you. This makes you worth less to hunt than them who don’t recognize the danger of travelling down the pipes… by not being an easy target you stop being a preferred target.
SP mean nothing if you deny them an engagement.
I would say it is you. Why? Because in these cases you have engaged the action fully understanding what you do and that other party has no ideas about what is happening.
Like they say: it’s no ship and it’s no SP what matters in EvE. Player skills are the only important factor.
Other than that it could be falcon or logi alt (you haven’t mentioned it so you might be playing “fair”).
If anything you can put all blame and using “unfair advantage” to your victim because it was you who engaged the action.