By this definition, literally every fight ever was wrong. I struggle to accept this logic in a game designed around spaceship combat.
I provoke in many ways, but when you ship up and undock to stomp my teeth-in with your shiny cool battlecruiser… you stop being a victim and join the ranks of combatants.
I’m just inviting you to play, and you’re cordially accepting.
I’d say I’m making a great sport out of it… and allowing my opponents a great advantage… in the core gameplay of Eve.
I see the win or loss of this engagement as a simple touchdown… free of any of the morality and fairness complexity you’re casting on it.
No, that’s incorrect. It’s not Mo’s fault the other side was clueless. It could have been otherwise too. The fact that Mo more often than not comes out as winner does not change that it’s not a given.
Think about it. If CCP balanced the game around the potential stupidity of its players, then you not only drive away literally all the smart players, you also create more and more stupid ones.
You always have to blame those who don’t know better. They get ■■■■■■, because that’s how Life works. A society centered around its weakest and dumbest will end up as a society of weak and dumb, because there’s no pressure driving society forward anymore.
What about kids and sick ones? They are “weakest and dumbest” so they should not get protection? You sure you are talking about real societies?
You sure about that? You sure he never checked his targets killboard before baiting? It looks very un-EvE-like to me…
Not wrong but you cannot say your opponent had “unfair advantage”. That’s what i’m arguing about.
I agree.
Is it really a choice when you have to choose between guaranteed loss and fight?
Overall the only downside of can baiting for me was that it was pvp players “playing” with high-sec miners (who is most possible not pvp-minded person and has no prior experience with pvp which is easily proven by killboard). Yes, you can downship and allow him to upship but this in no way increases chances of inexperienced person against prepared bait.
Temporary weakness is not the same as permanent weakness. Sure kids are weak and need protection, but then they grow into adults and if the parents did their jobs those kids are self sufficient and productive members of society…
Yes. But you not right when you write “they heard”. Spend some time in Dodixie for example and you will see people doing exactly this.
One or two guys are baiting and once you engage you see 2-3 bumpers and 3 or more logistics ships joining the party. All characters are in different corporations and totally strangers to each other but for some reason you find yourself pointed, bumped and killed without any chance to win or escape.
Being as risk averse and as experienced (this year i will celebrate 10 years in EvE) as me i still got baited few times thinking that this time it will be different.
Now let’s say some new player visits market and sees this. What will he do? You bet he will decide to never engage in similar situations. And then players like you start to make posts like this.
I’ve fought the guys in dodoxie before. They killed a nice station phoon I had a few years ago. And the guys in Jita and the guys in Amarr… sometimes you lose ships.
Yeah, they have reps. Sometimes that happens. If happens pretty much all the time on hubs because you need reps for station baiting in hubs.
Flash mobs are a problem there…
I’ve lost ships in all 3 locations. It’s just part of the game.
To swear off PvP because you lost a ship is like swearing off football because the other team scored.
If you play, sometimes the other team is going to score.
While fighting solo frigates and small boats in minor mission hubs… reps are pretty darn rare.
And, with a little thought, you can be ready for them.
Your paradigm of PvP is almost solely a senior player in a legion roflstomping noobs in their nicest newest ships.
This isn’t core to any PvP I’ve ever been part of (possible exception being the post-retribution merc scene where stacks of legions stomp anything that hits the pipeline)… but it’s so avoidable…
For what it’s worth, most of the guys I flew with (and I) found that distasteful. You and I are in general agreement about that.
Blapping noobs isn’t fun. But when they fight a baiter, it’s because they want to play. And I always let them play… they paid their money. I make it as fair as any and I love teaching them.
I’ve lost Ibises and Velators to noobs because I wanted it to be hard for me and fun for them. And yeah, I’ve lost boats to them and they’ve experienced the fun of beating a senior player (sometimes by using reps, even).
You act as though letting them fight is mean. I think not letting them fight is mean.
Everyone is targeting someone. PvP noobs target noobs because that’s who they can beat. Experienced pvp’ers target slightly junior pvp’ers. Expert pvp’ers target experienced pvp’ers. This mode means each of us capable of being both predators and prey.
Why shouldn’t it work like this? It was fun. I used to know lots of noobs… I used to run a training chat room full of them.
You’re imaging that losing a ship is like me taking their wallet. I’m imaging that me playing with them is generally nice.
Not “letting them fight” but baiting them to do what they have no experience about. It is not that they wanted to fight you. They were minding their own business and then you appeared from nowhere and forced them into situation “lose something or try and defend it by fight”. And yes, having no ideas about pvp one can take his best lvl4 mission battleship and engage being fully sure that he will win. Don’t forget that he was able to kill hordes of ships with this beast in these missions!
And yes, i have nothing against that. This is EvE Online. Like you said: everyone lose ships.
My only point is that this situation can be seen from various POVs and it is pretty understandable why some (or many, does not matter actually) wanted protection from this. Most of the time it is not fun for baited one and loss might be all they had.
I believe that the game is, at its core, a space opera. The true heart of it is drama… and all PvP and ultimately pve extends from that.
Pure PvP isn’t really that interesting to me. That’s part of the problem with the merc thing for me. It’s not drama or interaction.
My argument is, and always has been, that those minor crimes and the decisions they imply are what makes Eve engaging.
Having to click 4 times in a 15 minute mining cycle in a Venture isn’t that engaging… but watching a fight, or an argument, or extortion makes the game interesting and dangerous and gritty.
Yes, they’re not nice things… but the labor of their accumulation is the love of the game… and I think that applies to both the winners and the losers of individual engagements.
Losing sucks, but being bored is far more fatal as it affects engagement and playtime.
I still think, and will always think, that criminal Eve was one of the strongest drivers of Eve drama, and hence one of the strongest drivers of Eve retention and fascination.
As you say there are many perspectives. I have been baited before I have been conned, I have been stolen from. I think it is impossible to protect from these things and it should be accepted as part of the Eve experience.
There is a saying; Trick me once but never twice. This saying applies fully to Eve, once you lose your only ratting ship to a bait get up off the floor dust yourself off and grind for another ratting ship and remember not to fall for their bait again. Also learn about other ways of being baited so you know what to look out for and avoid the trap.
The players must understand that Eve is a game set in a futuristic world which is very harsh. So I actually don’t know why people want protection from baits, losing sucks i can agree but never forget lots can be learned from losing, In fact one can become a great Eve player simply by learning from yours and other peoples mistakes.
People seem to want what is not available to buy. Protection from baits is actually free, one just needs to talk to others more or join a corp that have people who know the game well. Alternatively one can read more about Eve.
Another reality is that for your Sub or PLEX payment you have access to a great virtual world that is content rich and exciting, and can provide hours of entertainment.
