Left because of wardec

[Tipa_Riot]

@Jeremiah_Saken

they are meaningless because they have no goal to fight with each other in hisec (in combat sense ofc). Fight for what? Space? Resources?

Yep. I wish CCP had decided to ban Upwell structures completely from highsec. Corp owned properties do not fit with high security.

[Jeremiah_Saken]

@Remiel_Pollard

Any corp can stand against any other corp if they choose to be capable of doing so. There is nothing stopping a mining-oriented corp from contacting a merc corp and asking for assistance if they themselves do not want to fight and can instead pay someone to run interference. But there are over 7000 star systems throughout EVE, and additional slots on everyone’s account that they can use for out-of-corp alts to access hubs, which as long as hub-humpers are a thing, I fully condone. Those guys need to learn how to hunt (not talking about you Raz, but I’m sure you do know who I’m talking about).

and that’s the point you’ll never understand. Some players don’t want to do pvp, some players don’t want to leave hisec, some players don’t want to hold sov, etc etc etc. Yet you trying to teach them “how to do combat pvp”. Basically what you saying is feeding medium rare steake to the vegetarian. It won’t work. Not everything should focus about hunting the players who don’t want to fight because EvE is a super duper harsh pvp game. The reason people still try to avoid wardec instead of fighting with agressor should gave you a hint that this mechanism is bad and oppressive at some point (there are hisec corp that defend themself I belive). That’s why we need environment to balance that.

Question is why wardec corp goes to war? What is their motivation? Any agenda or only just shoot war targets? ISK wars? Camping? Why not go to the other types of space with more chances to get the fight?

@Lord_Razpataz

And while I agree there should be things fixed to sort that out, most of it involves crimewatch not the wardec mechanics.

yep crimewatch is a *****. I saw you add a win condition to a wardec. Interesting. Maybe we should go this way, make a conditions to win-lose wars instead just shooting targets.

[Remiel_Pollard]

@Jeremiah_Saken

Some players don’t want to do pvp

Then they shouldn’t log on, because EVE is a PVP game. That’s the part you’re refusing to understand, or maybe you do understand and you’re refusing to accept it. Either way, it’s a simple fact. That’s what the game is. If people don’t want PVP, then EVE is not for them.

[Aaron]

Yes, This game is marketed as a pvp game. CCP is the carrot holder here and they can dangle it in front of us as they see fit.

I just wish I had more time to play these days

[Lord_Razpataz]

@Jeremiah_Saken

@Lord_Razpataz

And while I agree there should be things fixed to sort that out, most of it involves crimewatch not the wardec mechanics.

yep crimewatch is a *****. I saw you add a win condition to a wardec. Interesting. Maybe we should go this way, make a conditions to win-lose wars instead just shooting targets.

I feel its a much better solution than restricting wars to structures, or worse… a structure to be able to wardec.
If you make it so winning the war isk wise matters, fighting back has a meaning. imho

[Jeremiah_Saken]

Not exactly. They will become content to other players in situation where they will have inability to response.
Let me show you my example.
I’m a pve player. I’m doing exploration mainly. I’m a content for the players that hunts me. Sometimes they catch me but most of the time I will escape them. It’s bilateral gameplay. Both parties have fun there. Without players that hunts me it will be boring activity and for the hunters, my T3C is a juicy, worth hunting, target. There is also a purpose in that gameplay (providing salvage, hunting), and it’s by all means PvP.

Now we have so called, blanket wardecing. Single sided gameplay, in favors of wardec corp. Why hisec merc corps goes to war? I don’t see any great reason to blanket wardecc every possible hisec corp. We need a cause to fight wars. Current mechanism is flawed and drive away players from the game. It’s for the sake “because it’s a pvp game”.

[Jeremiah_Saken]

@Lord_Razpataz

I feel its a much better solution than restricting wars to structures, or worse… a structure to be able to wardec.

If you make it so winning the war isk wise matters, fighting back has a meaning. imho

can you explain what was the goal behind binding war with structure, I think I get it wrong.

[Remiel_Pollard]

@Jeremiah_Saken

…in situation where they will have inability to response.

There is no such thing, and as such, your example is moot. Everyone has the ability to respond. If they don’t respond, it’s because they choose not to. Everything in this game is a choice. The moment you undock, you’ve CHOSEN to be a potential target to literally everyone on grid with you, and that’s the same in high sec as it is in low, nul, and wh, wardecced or not. This never changes, because EVE is a PVP game. That is all.

[Dracvlad]

@Lord_Razpataz

Asset safety is just ■■■■■■■■… and make even less people fight. They’ll rather sacrifice the structure than defending it because of it.

That may be the case in that people do not defend them hisec, it is certainly not the case in nullsec, and to be utterly blunt asset security is needed in nullsec period. And if it did not exist you should expect a lot less content in nullsec because many people will keep the bare minimum in nullsec. If you think that people dropping carriers on roamers is bad, just wait to there being no asset security…

---

In terms of the OP I would say that war decs are part of Eve, however the current situation is not good for either side.

@Jeremiah_Saken

Now we have so called, blanket wardecing. Single sided gameplay, in favors of wardec corp. Why hisec merc corps goes to war? I don’t see any great reason to blanket wardecc every possible hisec corp. We need a cause to fight wars. Current mechanism is flawed and drive away players from the game. It’s for the sake “because it’s a pvp game”.

Blanket war decs were happening before the watch list was removed, this is due to three main reasons, the first was players did not really want to hunt as too much hassle and the second was because the cost of war decs being increased pushed people to group together more, the third was thath hisec became a place where avoidance was the only way to play.

In effect war decs have become a desperate search for easy targets, in fact they often get the least value in terms of hisec corps or alliances.

There is no value in fighting as a defender unless you want to try to have some fun out of it, but to be honest most of the time it is pretty stale because you have to plan for neutral RR so that makes even picking off a couple of pipe campers a bit more of a chore.

I feel it does drive people away from the game, but you will not get any numbers on it, but in reality the mercs in hisec are effectively dying out too.

[Lord_Razpataz]

@Jeremiah_Saken

Question is why wardec corp goes to war? What is their motivation? Any agenda or only just shoot war targets? ISK wars? Camping? Why not go to the other types of space with more chances to get the fight?

I can answer that, atleast from my perspective.
Why go to war? to be able to shoot someone in highsec without concord butting in.
Motivation? Build a reputation as a merc. “emergent gameplay” offering services to people not able to do it them self.
Agenda? Just blapping wartargets is to me like doing missions, the merc gameplay offers me a meaning/reason for killing you. (see motivation)
ISK? there’s not that much isk to be made tbh, atleast if your an honest merc.
Camping? nah… its a just a means to an end. only way to get content without working for hours for a single kill.
Why not go to null? Its not about racking up kills, at least not for me. And highsec offers a more restricted and challenging mechanics. And often every single pilot in your fleet matters. One pilot skills can turn a fight

@Jeremiah_Saken

can you explain what was the goal behind binding war with structure, I think I get it wrong.

There’s two ideas floating atm. both bad, not sure wich one your asking about but I’ll explain it in short.

1, You need a structure to be wardec’d.
This would mean 1 man holding corps would have structures, while the alliance or corp owning said structure is excluded from wars. untouchable.
Fighting back cost more than sacrificing, and with asset safety and a week to evac fighting to defend it is not an option.

2, You need a “wardec structure” to be able to wardec.
This boils down to actually being able to get the wardeccer to drop the dec forcibly. This would mean that the biggest fish gets the advantage, making only the ones you already hate to be able to do wars.

[Lord_Razpataz]

@Dracvlad

@Lord_Razpataz

Asset safety is just ■■■■■■■■… and make even less people fight. They’ll rather sacrifice the structure than defending it because of it.

That may be the case in that people do not defend them hisec, it is certainly not the case in nullsec, and to be utterly blunt asset security is needed in nullsec period. And if it did not exist you should expect a lot less content in nullsec because many people will keep the bare minimum in nullsec. If you think that people dropping carriers on roamers is bad, just wait to there being no asset security…

War decs are part of Eve, however the current situation is not good for either side.

Yeah… how did they survive in null before citadels… hmmm

[Dracvlad]

@Lord_Razpataz

Yeah… how did they survive in null before citadels… hmmm

Come on, you should know better than that, 100% asset security with no cost in Outposts, all I had to do was keep a clone in that station and then sell the stuff over time within the market and by contracts, I sold all my stuff in Cobalt Edge easily and made a lot of ISK that way. Yes you need to think…

[Lord_Razpataz]

@Dracvlad

@Lord_Razpataz

Yeah… how did they survive in null before citadels… hmmm

Come on, you should know better than that, 100% asset security with no cost in Outposts, all I had to do was keep a clone in that station and then sell the stuff over time within the market and by contracts, I sold all my stuff in Cobalt Edge easily and made a lot of ISK that way. Yes you need to think…

I just had to poke.
But I do feel that if citadels only was there to replace Outposts I would agree with you. Since they also replaces POS’s its another issue. Suddenly its too safe. Maybe only the faction citadels should have asset safety?

[Dracvlad]

@Lord_Razpataz

I just had to poke.

But I do feel that if citadels only was there to replace Outposts I would agree with you. Since they also replaces POS’s its another issue. Suddenly its too safe. Maybe only the faction citadels should have asset safety?

Actually I would only apply asset safety to the large and extra Large structures at this point… Though possibly a better way is that I would add to the drops from the citadels if I was CCP to make it so people want to blow them up in HISEC, it is also a lot easier now too.

[Jeremiah_Saken]

@Lord_Razpataz

I can answer that, atleast from my perspective.

Why go to war? to be able to shoot someone in highsec without concord butting in.

Motivation? Build a reputation as a merc. “emergent gameplay” offering services to people not able to do it them self.

Agenda? Just blapping wartargets is to me like doing missions, the merc gameplay offers me a meaning/reason for killing you. (see motivation)

ISK? there’s not that much isk to be made tbh, atleast if your an honest merc.

Camping? nah… its a just a means to an end. only way to get content without working for hours for a single kill.

Why not go to null? Its not about racking up kills, at least not for me. And highsec offers a more restricted and challenging mechanics. And often every single pilot in your fleet matters. One pilot skills can turn a fight

how many times in your carrer decced corps defended themselfes (before watchlist changes)? If they are defended, why they did that? Do you had hisec corporation that win war with you? Do you had any 3rd party contracts?

@Lord_Razpataz

1, You need a structure to be wardec’d.

This would mean 1 man holding corps would have structures, while the alliance or corp owning said structure is excluded from wars. untouchable.

Fighting back cost more than sacrificing, and with asset safety and a week to evac fighting to defend it is not an option.

2, You need a “wardec structure” to be able to wardec.

This boils down to actually being able to get the wardeccer to drop the dec forcibly. This would mean that the biggest fish gets the advantage, making only the ones you already hate to be able to do wars.

there is no reason to fight over the structures so there it is. This is an offspring of what structure should be in nullsec and how they don’t fit with their mechanics in hisec.

[Dracvlad]

Lord Razpataz is someone who hunted, bear that in mind when exchanging with him on this subject.

[Lord_Razpataz]

@Jeremiah_Saken

how many times in your carrer decced corps defended themselfes (before watchlist changes)? If they are defended, why they did that? Do you had hisec corporation that win war with you? Do you had any 3rd party contracts?

I’ve been doing the merc thing for years, so I cant really name a number. But being rather small I got alot of people defending themself.
The one I’m most proud of is getting PL to highsec in 2011 defending a POS.
For the reason people defended their structure… mostly because there was jobs running or stuff locked in hangars.
Yes, I’ve lost many wars (if you mean isk war) over the years. One good trap and the war is lost isk wise. Wardeccers fly blingy ■■■■.

3rd party contracts, can you explain?

Edit: Notice the other comments on that thread, the complaints about wardeccers are different from then to now

[Anne_Dieu-le-veut]

I could see them end up doing “social corps” like has been discussed. IMO social corps should still get the 11% NPC corp tax rate. Otherwise, every corp that wants to avoid wardecs will just become social corps.

@Lord_Razpataz

1, You need a structure to be wardec’d.

This would mean 1 man holding corps would have structures, while the alliance or corp owning said structure is excluded from wars. untouchable.

Fighting back cost more than sacrificing, and with asset safety and a week to evac fighting to defend it is not an option.

2, You need a “wardec structure” to be able to wardec.

This boils down to actually being able to get the wardeccer to drop the dec forcibly. This would mean that the biggest fish gets the advantage, making only the ones you already hate to be able to do wars.

^^^This

[Jeremiah_Saken]

@Dracvlad

Lord Razpataz is someone who hunted, bear that in mind when exchanging with him on this subject.

I’m aware of that, but I think he is the person to ask what is wrong with hisec wars and merc community when he done it for years. I was being hunted so I know that part. Clearly both sides takes no fun in hisec wars.

@Lord_Razpataz

3rd party contracts, can you explain?

the situation you got hired by decced corp to defend them for another mercs.

So what happen?

1. watchlist removal;
2. war cost increase;
3. possiblity to drop war easiliy (always been there)
   anything else?

[Lord_Razpataz]

Yes, I’ve assisted a lot of wars against other merc/wardeccers.

Hunting was the most challenging options doing wardecs. So over the years with a ■■■■■■ up crimewatch made it so people in general did not want to fight.
This made getting content more difficult so more and more wardeccers shifted to the easier option. Then came the watchlist change and killed off the few that was dedicated enough to still be doing it.

War cost did not have a factor in 2012-2013, but with lack of content over the years more wars was needed. that is costly and people started to group up more. The one who could maintain most wars/content got the most recruits. I dont think War cost is an issue, and hard to fix without breaking it.

Jumping corp has always been an issue, but as the general view of people was that its “impossible to fight’em” CEO’s tells their members to jump ship making the situation even worse.

I hope I answered your questions?