Calling a person’s idea “stupid” “bad”, “terrible” “awful” etc. is practically a guarantee of getting a debate based on feelings. Surely you can see that.
Further, calling an idea “stupid” “bad”, “awful”, “terrible” is the OPPOSITE of debating based on facts because those words are subjective opinion.
Consider how many people thought putting a man on the moon was a “bad” idea for a million reasons. Imagine of one of those reasons was “He will die. There is no oxygen, plus he will explode in the low pressure.” Sounds like a bad idea. But then someone comes up with a pressure suit and suddenly that problem is solved and now we have a reason to think putting a man on the moon might be a good idea after all.
Fact of the matter is, declaring ideas to be “stupid” “bad”, “awful” “terrible” only hurt the discussion. They serve no purpose beyond the pleasure of the speaker in making an ass of himself.
You are arguing with me, and I am not the person who you should argue with. Argue with the CCP guy that wrote:
“Address one of the most debated subjects in EVE, AFK cloaky camping, with improved systems to get rid of the frustration of AFK cloaking and its total lack of counterplay”
I know that one gets frustated when the game changes something that you liked how it was, but well… HTFU
It’s no more an exception than the fact you can’t use bubbles in hisec.
Amongst other things, I’ll camp a site cloaked, at a range of just over 150 km, so I can prey on unwanted visitors. This is a perfectly valid wormhole strategy which would be totally destroyed by any ‘decloaking’ hardware that is allowed to operate in J-space.
That’s a very good point, it would be too easy to check a single site for cloakies.
I ran into similar issues when I thought how this module would impact bombing runs - just like site camping that happens on a single grid as well and would be easily probed down.
I guess we’ll need to go back to the drawing board, because while I may want to have counterplay against afk cloaks, I don’t want to hurt legitimate cloaking strategies.
Not sure if this has already been mentioned, search didn’t turn up anything in this thread or elsewhere:
Quote from CCP Hellmar:
I had my little cheat sheet of like things that people were complaining about from the world tour I think we fixed everything but cloaky camping. I think it’s the only cloaky camping that’s left and at some point we’ll get to that with some inspired solution other than just kind of hand waving it, because it’s actually a pretty deep topic when you really dig into it. It has to do with emotional asymmetry in the actor contractor domain, which is… It certainly took me a while to understand why it’s a hot topic.
So it seems that CCP actually does want to fix ‘cloaky camping’, they are just not sure how yet. It appearantly also took Hellmar a long time to understand the situation. So this from the Ecosystem Outlook:
Address one of the most debated subjects in EVE, AFK cloaky camping, with improved systems to get rid of the frustration of AFK cloaking and its total lack of counterplay without removing the ability for hunters to catch lazy prey, or for spies to be able to scout and monitor systems with strategic value.
is not just something they put in randomly to appease a certain group.
Thanks for sharing that, I had not seen that fireside chat but it seems CCP really wants to do something about cloaky camping.
I’m really interested in seeing a dev blog with a decent analysis of the whole cloaky camping issue from a neutral point of view, because most people in this thread are anything but neutral.
And I’m really interested in seeing the solution(s) they come up with, it’s hard to find something reasonable that addresses the issue of afk cloaked campers without hurting legitimate cloaking strategies, (as I have seen in my most recent attempt ).
It’s not really that hard, it just requires more than nerfing cloaks. The free and perfect intel power of local needs addressing at the same time.
Pretty much like everyone had said here for the the last 7500 posts when someone comes up with the “new” idea to just limit the time you can stay cloaked as the “solution”.
I’m sure CCP knows what they are doing and will come up with a system that gives more agency to sov owners to expunge cloaky campers while not just making local a more powerful and reliable intel tool by adding some new ways to disrupt the farming activities of the residents.
As you may have noticed, CCP is clearly talking about
AFK cloaking and it’s total lack of counterplay
I do not deny that the removal of local chat would solve a part of the afk cloak issue, but that solution is not the impression I get when I read CCP’s post:
Address one of the most debated subjects in EVE, AFK cloaky camping, with improved systems to get rid of the frustration of AFK cloaking and its total lack of counterplay without removing the ability for hunters to catch lazy prey, or for spies to be able to scout and monitor systems with strategic value.
As you see, there is no mention of local chat anywhere. Local chat intel definitely should be part of their afk cloak analysis, but it is not one and the same as the afk cloak issue.
Like I said before, I really look forward to a neutral CCP dev blog analysis of the afk cloaking issue as neutrality is hard to find on this topic.
Please don’t perpetuate the illogical viewpoint of ‘any reference to AFK cloaky camping has to do with the action of cloaking itself and nothing else’. Even Hillmar made it clear that it is about more than a person being cloaked. CCP has known this for years, and has been looking at SOV-specific solutions (like their original concept for the observatory array) to handle it because AFK cloaky camping does not exist in a vacuum and cannot be addressed independently of other features.
…without removing the ability for hunters to catch lazy prey, or for spies to be able to scout and monitor systems with strategic value.
Degrading the reliability of local chat to accomplish these things is part of what AFK cloaking is used for and why changes haven’t been made yet. CCP needs to find a set of changes that still enables these important things that AFK cloaking is currently used for, while providing counter-play to those being cloaky camped.
It a will take a couple simultaneous adjustments, but I have no doubt CCP will come up with something.
Is that a reaction to Salt Foambreaker’s statement that the AFK cloaky camping issue is the same as the local chat intel issue?
Or is it a reaction to my statement that those are two separate, but related issues?
The afk cloaky camping issue has to do with a lot of different factors, and many of those are indeed not the cloak itself. So if you think I have any issues with cloaks: try again.
Sorry, I meant ‘explicit mention’.
You’re right, that part of the text could be interpreted as ‘degrading reliability of local chat’, but we won’t know for sure until they explain more about their plans.
I’m reacting to your assertion that because they didn’t mention local specifically that means all they are talking about is AFK cloaky camping and not any related components to the issue. They may not touch local itself directly, but the way you presented your statement is that anything they do is only to cloak mechanics and there is no room for CCP to be touching other mechanics in the process. Unless and until CCP actually tell us how they are changing things, relying on their statement to mean ‘all they are touching is this specific mechanic’ is illogical as they have repeatedly acknowledged that there are a lot of pieces involved.
I just wanted to clarify that afk cloaky camping and local intel are two separate issues requiring separate solutions, even though they may be tightly related. This was done in a reaction to Salt Foambreaker’s statement that those two things are one and the same.
Not whining. Just restating the simple fact that the only reason there is a “problem” with AFK cloaking is because of Local.
So tightly related that if a cloaky player did not show up in Local we wouldn’t have this thread. The whole reason this is considered a problem is because a pilot shows up in Local. I’ve not seen one player from wormhole space complaining about the AFK cloaky camper in their wormhole.
Hopefully nothing. The cloak is not the problem. Go to a wormhole with 100 alts. Cloak up and walk away from your keyboard. Continue to do that day after day after day until the locals start complaining. You’ll be there forever, because it’s not an issue without Local. It’s not the cloak, it’s the knowing they’re out there.
Doing something only to cloaks to address a problem which impacts a small portion of the player base and a small portion of the usage of cloaks seems a bit heavy handed. The best case scenario would be to create a solution for the sov holders where they could actively make it more difficult for a cloaky camper in their system to sit there AFK 23/7. Give them more power than they already have to deal with “their” problem. If they can’t, it’s not their system.
Seriously, Local isn’t that much of an issue. I’ve said this before, the people complaining about Local and “perfect intel” aren’t even the same people who afk cloaky camp. I don’t know where people decided to blend the two issues together.
AFK cloaking exists because it’s the most effective way to score economic hits against your target. Because it’s the most effective way to combat the ADM system. Because it’s an easy way to hurt multiple line members and reduce their morale.
People really need to piss off with the “bUt LoCaL” argument, it doesn’t even address the same issue people cloaky camp in the first place over.
).