Main AFK cloaky thread

[Mike_Voidstar]

@Merin_Ryskin

Because local gives 100% accurate warning of a threat appearing in system, with more than enough time to warp out and dock before any attack is possible. Seriously, this is not complicated. No amount of “effort” will allow you to get tackle on a target within 10 seconds of appearing in local.

If local is completely empty, sure. Try hunting someplace where there are more people to blend in with, perhaps? It’s not rocket science. If there are too many people in local you won’t even get seen, and it does not take that many people in local before you have to be actively scrolling in the chat roster pane to see people. Where you hunt is your business, but if you are unsatisfied with the hunting where you are, try moving someplace better.

@Merin_Ryskin

No, zero hours of effort went into it. Local is there as soon as you start the game and requires no effort to maintain. You’d have a point about effort if local was only provided at great difficulty and expense by upgrading your system, but it isn’t.

I know you are special, but how is it people aren’t totally safe in high sec, or even most of low sec despite local working in exactly the same fashion. Here’s a clue: The residents of the area hunted everyone else to extinction, which means they put in manhours of effort getting it that way, and continue to do so keeping it that way. That’s why you need your wittle hand held with a cloak to hunt there in the first place, because the big scary guys that live there will shoot you if you try to stay without joining them. That’s what people with intelligence call a feature and not a bug. Even better, they did it with good old fashioned PvP. You are scared of nonconsensual PvP, but still want your easy kills behind enemy lines. That’s fine, but you should have to work for it too.

@Merin_Ryskin

PvP in EVE does not require consent, or being liked. Lazy and stupid nullsec farmers should suffer losses frequently regardless of how much they hate the people killing them.

Lazy and stupid campers who can’t be bothered to stay and watch their ships should do so as well. If it’s good for the goose it’s good for the gander. Except in MerinWorld, where psychopaths need to have their hands held and be given safe spaces to do their hunting in.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Mike_Voidstar

If local is completely empty, sure. Try hunting someplace where there are more people to blend in with, perhaps? It’s not rocket science. If there are too many people in local you won’t even get seen, and it does not take that many people in local before you have to be actively scrolling in the chat roster pane to see people. Where you hunt is your business, but if you are unsatisfied with the hunting where you are, try moving someplace better.

You do realize that the local window can be resized, right? And you need a pretty packed system before you can’t fit everyone on screen at once? And that even if you don’t have a list of names you still have the number of people in local and can start aligning as soon as you see that number change, then cancel your warp if it’s a blue? Sounds like you just don’t know how to use local effectively.

I know you are special, but how is it people aren’t totally safe in high sec, or even most of low sec despite local working in exactly the same fashion.

People are not safe in highsec because NBSI is not a thing in highsec. Suicide ganks are very rare, so identifying the potential threat among all the people who are zero threat is impossible. In a situation where you have identifiable enemies, such as a war, local provides near-complete protection.

Farmers can not use local for safety in lowsec because no PvE content exists in lowsec. Anyone in lowsec is either looking for a fight or a clueless newbie stumbling around waiting to die.

Local is effective in nullsec because NBSI is the standard rule. If there isn’t a blue + beside a name it’s someone trying to kill you. There are no neutrals to get in the way of accurate intelligence, every single player is either a known ally or a known enemy.

Here’s a clue: The residents of the area hunted everyone else to extinction, which means they put in manhours of effort getting it that way, and continue to do so keeping it that way.

Hardly. Most of nullsec is empty because the player count is low relative to the number of systems. There are lots of nullsec systems that are completely empty of players, red or blue, and no meaningful attempt is made to keep them that way. There just isn’t anyone who cares enough to be there. And when people do care enough to be somewhere they’re hardly “hunted to extinction”. Bringing a fleet into most of nullsec is easy, if you want to be there.

That’s why you need your wittle hand held with a cloak to hunt there in the first place, because the big scary guys that live there will shoot you if you try to stay without joining them.

Lolwut. Remember how PvE players have zero hope of victory and a cloak is “auto-win”? And how having PvP ships on standby is not a solution to AFK cloakers? A major premise of your argument is that it is NOT a case of “if you try hunting here we’ll just kill you”, otherwise AFK cloakers would be zero threat.

The actual reason a cloak is necessary is that staying in a system for long periods of time is necessary to counter local and prevent all of the targets from running away as soon as you appear in local.

Lazy and stupid campers who can’t be bothered to stay and watch their ships should do so as well. If it’s good for the goose it’s good for the gander. Except in MerinWorld, where psychopaths need to have their hands held and be given safe spaces to do their hunting in.

Apparently you’re such an idiotic sheep ****er that you still can’t figure out the difference in risk vs. reward between a ship sitting idle in space and a player making billions of ISK per hour farming the most profitable PvE content in the game.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Mike_Voidstar

Can you be interacted with? Why, yes you can!

Wut?

You said danger, not interact with. You can try to interact with any player in the game provided you see them somehow–e.g. local chat.

@Mike_Voidstar

You can be scanned down, tackled and killed if you stay in space when someone does appear.

Only if you are bad…really bad.

@Mike_Voidstar

Maybe try being someone other people want to play with and you will have better luck next time.

I have both killed using a cloaky ship and been killed by a cloaky ship…can you say that? No, you can’t.

@Mike_Voidstar

Are you seriously claiming that you should be able to kill people in space when you aren’t even present in system?

Pardon me, but WTFATYA?

Nobody has suggested anything like this at all.

@Mike_Voidstar

Perhaps you should lobby CCP for a Starkiller base so you can sit safely at home and kill people from across the galaxy.

Okay…now you are just losing it.

[Mike_Voidstar]

@Merin_Ryskin

You do realize that the local window can be resized, right? And you need a pretty packed system before you can’t fit everyone on screen at once? And that even if you don’t have a list of names you still have the number of people in local and can start aligning as soon as you see that number change, then cancel your warp if it’s a blue? Sounds like you just don’t know how to use local effectively.

Careful. You are skirting pretty dangerously into territory of someone putting out effort and not doing PvE afk in total safety. I mean, that is really starting to sound like the people operating in those systems are actually at their keyboard and being pretty careful how they fly, almost as if danger was something they are familiar with and have developed effective tactics to deal with it. Imagine if player efforts were actually useful in staying safe… the horror. We might have to have our hands held with a wittle cloaky button if that happened.

@Merin_Ryskin

People are not safe in highsec because NBSI is not a thing in highsec. Suicide ganks are very rare, so identifying the potential threat among all the people who are zero threat is impossible. In a situation where you have identifiable enemies, such as a war, local provides near-complete protection.

Holy Bat Guano! You mean it is player activity that makes local useful??? Not just local all by it’s lonesome, with maybe a tiny assist by a sleepy 99% afk pilot, but actual organized efforts on an alliance wide scale? I am purely agog with disbelief that it could be so. I mean, it even has a name! Where has this information been this whole time? Who’da thunk it… NBSI is the real culprit, not just the ever dreaded Local Chat.

@Merin_Ryskin

Farmers can not use local for safety in lowsec because no PvE content exists in lowsec. Anyone in lowsec is either looking for a fight or a clueless newbie stumbling around waiting to die.

Weird. There’s all kinds of asteroids to mine, level 5 missions to run, exploration sites… pretty much all the same stuff that exists everywhere else in the game as PvE content, yet you claim it’s simply not there. Amazing.

And even so, the people there are looking for a fight? Incredible you aren’t there shooting them right in the face instead of hunting miners in null in the most ball achingly way possible.

@Merin_Ryskin

Local is effective in nullsec because NBSI is the standard rule. If there isn’t a blue + beside a name it’s someone trying to kill you. There are no neutrals to get in the way of accurate intelligence, every single player is either a known ally or a known enemy.

I just have to digest this amazing new concept you have laid out. NBSI, a doctrine carried out by entire alliances, causes local to be useful. Gosh. Amazing. It’s like the heavens opened up and the angels sang the praises of the lord. This whole time the complaint was that local kept all these lazy afk miners and ratters 100% safe and it turns out it was actually the players doing it all along. Jesus. Wept.

@Merin_Ryskin

Hardly. Most of nullsec is empty because the player count is low relative to the number of systems. There are lots of nullsec systems that are completely empty of players, red or blue, and no meaningful attempt is made to keep them that way. There just isn’t anyone who cares enough to be there. And when people do care enough to be somewhere they’re hardly “hunted to extinction”. Bringing a fleet into most of nullsec is easy, if you want to be there.

But, this can’t be the case! You need a cloak to stay in this area, because if you can’t stay 100% safe from all interaction you can’t hunt the residents. Here you are saying that no one is in the area to shoot you at all, if so what could the cloak possibly be for?

It’s almost as if you are demanding that you stay safe so you can hunt others, and if they can hunt you back then the whole natural order of the universe breaks down because no one could possibly want to hunt you.

[Senriana_Hara]

So, the following presentation is just a quick idea rundown since I’m getting bored of trying to bait cloaks only to realize they’ve been afk for the entire day.

cloaks cdr increases the longer it’s on up to a maximum of 30 minutes of continous cloaking for 15minute cooldown; this cooldown extension is ignored if the ship in question engages in pvp (tackle/firing/etc), allowing the ship to cloak as normal upon completion of it’s objective, to continue its objective or to continue on to a new objective.

extended cooldown only applies in space not owned by the players corporation/alliance or NPC’s (this would allow for constant intel on those fleets that are planning to engage from npc space or are already in sov territory)
promote more people getting into covops/blops to supply intel as well as promote that area of content (lets be honest, blops and covops is fun)
Forces players to be at the keyboard more often, so the cloaky campers actually produce content, rather than just afking all day.

Stops people from crying that they can’t rat effectively because of the cloaky bois.
Forces alliances to be more engaged in their covert ops and a higher level of planning and engagement is required to keep intel on the enemy or potential content supplier.

No other changes made; if, within the 30min time span, pvp engagement occurs, the player can return to cloaking immediately, if, however, they’re determined to not produce or force content, they’re presented with a 15 minute cooldown on their cloak, allowing for those around them to engage, and force a fleet fight or further escalation, or simply have the cloak out of the system. This means they’d have to trade off the cloaking with another account or person every now and then, making cloaked intel gathering a team effort.

Pvp should be more active and entertaining, nothing positive seems to come from thh cloaky campers, because everyone knows they’ve got a cyno, but no one’s willing to engage them without some kind of potential benefit. With this timing change, it would allow for the sov owners to have the possibility of fighting back against intelligence gathering while making those intel gatherers actually do their job, rather than just alt-tabbing over to league or something.

this change would allow for more control over ones alleged area of ownership, while also allowing other alliances to be more aware and engaged with their covert alts or covert ops members; having to switch from one cloaky toon to another cloaky toon would utilize either more people or more accounts, ultimately providing more online members and, potentially, more active members, producing more content for both sides, and decreasing the annoying stale mates presented in most isk production systems.

Not sure if the idea’s already been presented or not, but just a thought on the matter, as I’m bored of just waiting for a cloaky camp to finally drop on me, only to realize they’re afk and not gonna produce any kind of entertainment, while only providing an illusory threat in local.

Either the above changes or some kind of module that can be activated once an hour or something a little more random, that can blast the system with a decloaking wave, and anyone at the keyboard can just recloak and continue seeking their objective as is, but anyone afk will rightfully become content (just like the botters should be content… or disbarred >_>).

If you pay for the game, you can continue skilling up afk, but not having any kind of positive effect on content is aggravating to say the least.
At least play the game, don’t just leave your ■■■■ logged in and go on vacation

Anyway, thoughts and opinions on the two ideas would be pretty interesting to see.
Apologies if they’ve already been posted somewhere, I didn’t see them.
Cheers,
Senriana Hara

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Mike_Voidstar

Careful. You are skirting pretty dangerously into territory of someone putting out effort and not doing PvE afk in total safety.

“Re-size local to cover the whole edge of the screen and show everyone in system” is hardly an investment of effort worth acknowledging.

@Mike_Voidstar

Holy Bat Guano! You mean it is player activity that makes local useful??? Not just local all by it’s lonesome, with maybe a tiny assist by a sleepy 99% afk pilot, but actual organized efforts on an alliance wide scale? I am purely agog with disbelief that it could be so. I mean, it even has a name! Where has this information been this whole time? Who’da thunk it… NBSI is the real culprit, not just the ever dreaded Local Chat.

WTF are you going on about here? NBSI is not “player activity” as in something that has deliberately removed threats from local, it’s simply a consequence of nullsec allowing CONCORD-free PvP at all times. There is no organized alliance-scale effort that makes NBSI effective. You just look at the icon in local and see if it has a blue + next to it, and if it doesn’t you assume it is hostile. At no point did your alliance contribute anything to that intel. In fact, NBSI is primarily a reflection of your alliance being ineffective because it allows hostile players into your space at all.

Weird. There’s all kinds of asteroids to mine, level 5 missions to run, exploration sites… pretty much all the same stuff that exists everywhere else in the game as PvE content, yet you claim it’s simply not there. Amazing.

You’re right, it isn’t there. Nothing in lowsec is worth doing in PvE. The ISK/hour is worse than nullsec, and the risk is higher. If you’re doing PvE in lowsec you’re either an idiot or a bait ship pretending to be an idiot. Anyone other than those two groups is either in highsec farming with 100% safety and only a bit less ISK/hour than lowsec, or farming in a dead-end system in nullsec with limited risk and much better rewards.

And even so, the people there are looking for a fight? Incredible you aren’t there shooting them right in the face instead of hunting miners in null in the most ball achingly way possible.

Ah yes, the classic “WHY ARE YOU HUNTING PVE PLAYERS INSTEAD OF PROVING WHAT A MANLY MAN YOU ARE BY FIGHTING PEOPLE WHO WANT TO FIGHT YOU” argument. Only a sheep-****ing idiot like you could find this argument compelling.

But, this can’t be the case! You need a cloak to stay in this area, because if you can’t stay 100% safe from all interaction you can’t hunt the residents. Here you are saying that no one is in the area to shoot you at all, if so what could the cloak possibly be for?

…

Are you honestly this stupid? Or are you just roleplaying an inbred sheep ****er?

[Teckos_Pech]

@Senriana_Hara

So, the following presentation is just a quick idea rundown since I’m getting bored of trying to bait cloaks only to realize they’ve been afk for the entire day.

cloaks cdr increases the longer it’s on up to a maximum of 30 minutes of continous cloaking for 15minute cooldown; this cooldown extension is ignored if the ship in question engages in pvp (tackle/firing/etc), allowing the ship to cloak as normal upon completion of it’s objective, to continue its objective or to continue on to a new objective.

Already been suggested before. You should here and spend some time reading.

Needless to say, CCP has declined to act on it for around a decade. And the obsrvatory array may very well kill this thread permanently…well maybe. I never underestimate a carebears ability to find something to whine about.

In fact, @ISD_Buldath can you add that link to the OP in this thread? Pretty please.

[Mike_Voidstar]

@Teckos_Pech

Wut?

You said danger, not interact with. You can try to interact with any player in the game provided you see them somehow–e.g. local chat.

If you are in space with them and they are neither cloaked nor in a station they are in danger. If you aren’t in system then what they are doing isn’t your business. If they aren’t in space with you then it’s still not your business.

As their business is in space and cannot be done with a cloak engaged then they are at risk. If they decide not to stay in space with you, that’s perhaps your issue, but it’s not something you need the game to hold your hand with, perhaps you should just be more friendly.

@Teckos_Pech

Mike_Voidstar:

You can be scanned down, tackled and killed if you stay in space when someone does appear.

Only if you are bad…really bad.

Yet it remains possible, and there are ways for you to improve that possibility, like not hunting in an area where you are the only one there and easily seen and identified as a threat.

@Teckos_Pech

Mike_Voidstar:

Are you seriously claiming that you should be able to kill people in space when you aren’t even present in system?

Pardon me, but WTFATYA?

Nobody has suggested anything like this at all.

What else are we to assume when you want to kill people you aren’t in space with? I mean, you were not there and they were in space, you show up and they leave… since you were never in space with them for any length of time it seems you want to kill people you aren’t even in the solar system with.

You set yourself a near impossible task: go deep into unfriendly territory, into space where you can be easily seen and identified as a threat, where defensive fleets exist to stop exactly the sort of thing you are trying…and then demand that CCP hold your hand with the cloaky button so you can shoot people you were not even in space with.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Mike_Voidstar

If you are in space with them and they are neither cloaked nor in a station they are in danger.

I’m sorry but…wut?

You claimed you were never effortlessly safe. I pointed out that you are effortlessly safe if you are in a system and local is clear.

You have moved the goal posts.

@Mike_Voidstar

Yet it remains possible, and there are ways for you to improve that possibility, like not hunting in an area where you are the only one there and easily seen and identified as a threat.

And you can do things to decloak a cloaked ship in certain instances.

@Mike_Voidstar

What else are we to assume when you want to kill people you aren’t in space with?

I have never made any such suggestion.

[Mike_Voidstar]

@Teckos_Pech

Mike_Voidstar:

If you are in space with them and they are neither cloaked nor in a station they are in danger.

I’m sorry but…wut?

You claimed you were never effortlessly safe. I pointed out that you are effortlessly safe if you are in a system and local is clear.

You have moved the goal posts.

They aren’t effortlessly safe. They went to the backend of hell’s acre to get away from people who want to shoot them. That was effort. They fly with an eye out looking for newly arrived hostiles. That is effort. They pick their targets, flight paths, sometimes even time zones to minimize their danger. All of that is effort. They do this constantly the entire time they are operating in space.

Those goal posts have been firmly rooted in that ground since the beginning of this argument a decade ago.

@Teckos_Pech

Mike_Voidstar:

Yet it remains possible, and there are ways for you to improve that possibility, like not hunting in an area where you are the only one there and easily seen and identified as a threat.

And you can do things to decloak a cloaked ship in certain instances.

In certain instances. Not the entire time you are in space like everyone else. Plus, all those certain instances are completely in the control of the pilot, never do they come up on an unexpected non-consensual basis.

@Teckos_Pech

Mike_Voidstar:

What else are we to assume when you want to kill people you aren’t in space with?

I have never made any such suggestion.

Every time you suggest wanting to push an undock button you do. Every time you say local protects pilots you do. These targets aren’t in space with you, yet you feel entitled to kill them and are upset that they won’t play the game with you.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Mike_Voidstar

yet you feel entitled to kill them and are upset that they won’t play the game with you.

No, that is not it at all. It’s not about wanting to play with us (that isn’t a choice you get to make in EVE), it’s about being able to farm the most profitable PvE content in EVE, making billions of ISK an hour, without any meaningful risk of loss. And it’s about your entitled attitude about that risk-free farming, that one of the few things that adds even the slightest risk or uncertainty to the process needs to be removed so you can be safer.

[Ag3nt_Jita]

First thing: cloaks are not a counter to local. This is bullsh1t.

Secondly the game was designed in a way that if you undock, you can be killed. While in theory an afk cloaker on a safe spot can be found IN A FEW YEARS OF ACTIVE SEARCHING(and being lucky to go on the right way…) but this will never happen. It is funny to see “hunters” talk about risk free farming while they are truly risk free in space.

[Ag3nt_Jita]

Its not my problem if you dont know what a counter is lmao.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Ag3nt_Jita

It is funny to see “hunters” talk about risk free farming while they are truly risk free in space.

Sigh. Not this again.

Risk-free farming is bad because you are making billions of ISK an hour.

Risk-free sitting idle in space is not a problem because you are not gaining anything. To accomplish anything you have to decloak, engage a target, and accept significant risk. It’s not like risk-free AFK cloaking is going to get you killmails or ISK or anything.

[Ag3nt_Jita]

Wanna try to communicate on my native language? Now stay ontopic

[Linus_Gorp]

@Ag3nt_Jita

Now stay ontopic

To have a discussion about the topic, you first need to be able to comprehend the basics of the topic and also have some basic knowledge about the topic. Alas, you fail at both, so why are you even here? There’s nothing you could ever contribute.

[Ag3nt_Jita]

You are insulting people over the internet who does not agree with you. It shows how weak you are… You have failed at life, so why are you even here?

Now explain how cloaks counter local.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Mike_Voidstar

They aren’t effortlessly safe.

Sure they are…what are they doing to ensure their safety? Nothing.

@Mike_Voidstar

In certain instances. Not the entire time you are in space like everyone else. Plus, all those certain instances are completely in the control of the pilot, never do they come up on an unexpected non-consensual basis.

Yes, certain instances, just like how you are in danger in certain instances. No, those instances for the cloaker are not in the control of player anymore than it is in the control of the ratter. You don’t have to undock do you? You don’t have to rat do you? Sure I don’t have to try and move several thousand robotics through NS systems.

The bottom line here is you are not God’s special snowflake Mike.

@Mike_Voidstar

Every time you suggest wanting to push an undock button you do.

You miss the point of such suggestions. It is to highlight the insipid nature of your suggestions.

@Mike_Voidstar

Every time you say local protects pilots you do.

Are you confusing me with others? I think so. Local doesn’t protect you, but it does provide you a distinct advantage at keeping safe.

@Mike_Voidstar

These targets aren’t in space with you, yet you feel entitled to kill them and are upset that they won’t play the game with you.

Again you are making crap up…

[Linus_Gorp]

@Ag3nt_Jita

Now explain how cloaks counter local.

It’s the perfect, infallible intel tool. 100% correct, instant, always tells you exactly who’s in the same system with you (wormholes excluded). If there’s a neutral in system, you run. Quite obvious, isn’t it?

Now add a afk cloaker to the mix. He’s always there, but you don’t know whether he’s active. He is using your infallible intel tool and turns it against you. Makes it unreliable through pure mind games. You can no longer rely on local to tell you whether you are in imminent danger and thus it is countered.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Ag3nt_Jita

First thing: cloaks are not a counter to local. This is bullsh1t.

The only thing that is bullsh1t here is your posts.

Yes, cloaks can degrade the usefulness of local precisely because of AFK cloaking. This is why some players are working on finding out where botters are likely working and then AFK camping those systems.