A citizen of the State is a citizen. It does not mean Caldari lineage or descent. Just guests afforded rights by a magnanimous nation.
A magnanimous nation that just happens to have come in and given them no choice about their world becoming a part of that nation?
Hm. That sounds familiarâŚ
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If they disagree, then they can fight and build their capabilities to defend their identity if they so choose.
The Federation is the only place that actually styles itself as a multicultural melting pot though.
The other three empires are, well, varying degrees of âassimilate or get lostâ.
Whether you consider that to be right or wrong is a matter of personal opinion. As for me, I live by an Achuran proverb - one doesnât bring oneâs own code to anotherâs monastery.
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I knew there was a reason I liked you.
Yes, I think a melting pot is just as impractical an idea as âassimilate or get outâ . In fact, I would argue that the melting pot concept is assimilation. It assumes that there is a culture that all other cultures are less than and must merge with.
Perhaps there is a better alternative than either of these. Clearly none of the existing cultures within the empires have agreed to cease to exist.
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Thank you for that clarification @Veikitamo_Gesakaarin.
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Yeah no thanks, I donât want foreigners to assimilate or get lost â just get lost. Because you cannot assimilate into being Caldari, you are born and raised as one, or you are not. If you are not then you should live segregated in your own ethnic enclaves if within the State to prevent contamination of Caldari society.
Doesnât make you any less hypocritical.
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How? I have never said the Gallente should not have tried to impose their values and political system on Caldari. I have said they should not complain about Caldari taking their technology and ideas for their own benefit so as not to be imposed upon.
If the Achur accept their position and status as a client people then thatâs what they do. They canât be forced to take pride in their culture enough to fight for it.
To whom are you replying to here?
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S Have you ever heard of the phrase Open hold the five colors flag
And i have song for you
Ambitions to the sky, ambitions to the sky
Today the good men go serve their country
Ambitions to the sky, ambitions to the sky
Today the good men go serve their country
The soaring iron wings shake mountains and rivers
Sweep clouds and smokes; rock the sun and moon
The soaring iron wings shake mountains and rivers
Sweep clouds and smokes; rock the sun and moon
We need to be full of wisdom and bravery
High in virtue and ethics
Skilled in art and combat
Like the flying tiger and the leaping water dragon
Strive hard for greatness
Never forget the pains endured
Shoulder the rise and fall of our world
Forever guard the ten-thousand-mile sky
Shoulder the rise and fall of our world
Forever guard the ten-thousand-mile sky
A fair point. I suppose, however, that the Federation wants to present the idea as not one culture subsuming the lesser ones, but as a new culture being made by incorporating others and their best traits.
It doesnât quite seem to work out that way - otherwise the Caldari wouldnât be pissed off enough to leave - but hey, nobodyâs perfect.
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Oh, you mean, given your other comments, that it would be nice if we gave Templis sympathizers like you (are currently, and frequently, probably-pretending to be) an excuse to annihilate us completely?
An important note, pilots: Veikitamo Gesakaarin speaks for what she wishes the State was like. It isnât completely unlike that, but thereâs a reason the Templis Dragonaurs are recognized as criminals. Those who convert to merge with Caldari culture fully are officially considered Caldari. Thatâs the situation for most ethnic Achura. Itâs just that the standards for doing so are pretty high-- in general, youâre not allowed to keep basically anything of who you were before-- so immigration rates are pretty low.
The Achura who exist as a client people, to whom this creature issues a dare to challenge âherâ people in an unwinnable fight, are a minority of our own blood. The others are Caldari corporate citizens, mostly of SuVee. Thatâs the way of it. Even if Veik and her master/father/whatever-he-is disagree.
You donât speak for the State, Veikitamo Gesakaarin, any more than I do.
Poor puppet, you most likely donât even speak for yourself.
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Well, thatâs the way it used to be, at least. Iâm afraid that the effects of this Provist brouhaha of a few years ago will be felt for quite some time. Random lynchings arenât something prospective citizens would easily forget.
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Isnât it curious though that members of the dominant culture donât think that their culture is being improved so much as the mainline culture is improving the other cultures? You often see the dominant culture adopting safe tokenized practices of the less dominant cultures as evidence of improvement, but insisting the less dominant cultures adopt wholesale changes to theirs.
I think that there is a lot that is good about the Federation. So if Iâm critical of it itâs only because I wish to make it better. For myself as well as others.
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If they were to be switched around, the larger culture would still subsume the smaller. Itâs just the way of things - one chorus is just louder and drowns out the other. Perhaps itâs only natural.
The only time this doesnât happen is when the lesser culture is seen as both exotic and more developed, thus turning its adoption by the larger one as a sort of a fad. But the examples of this are rare and none are from recent history.
A commendable sentiment, but you do have your work cut out for you. Quite a few of the uglier aspects of the Federation are hard to see and even harder to change.
Not to imply, of course, that everythingâs terrible. I may have found a better home elsewhere, but having spent considerable chunks of my life in three out of four empires of the cluster, Iâve found something to admire in each of them.
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Pretty simply: You wouldnât want to be treated a certain way, yet you advocate treating others that way.
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Perhaps, but just because something is natural it doesnât automatically make it good, healthy or wise.
Iâve never had the delusion that this would be easy. Your words are encouraging nonetheless. At least it sounds like you think positive change is possible.
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Oh. Uh. Arrendis, Veikâs actually pretty consistent on this theme: the part of the Stateâs dealings with the Achura she disapproves of is the uplift and conversion. According to her (at least recently), the State should just have left us undisturbed at the bottom of our gravity well and let us develop, or not, in our own time.
Mind, if there was a resource there that the State could benefit from, well, sheâs a little cagey about it, but given the choice sheâd rather wipe our people out without touching our culture than recognize people who are ânot of the snowsâ as Caldari. Racial (and cultural) genocide before racial or cultural compromise.
It doesnât involve even approaching what she sees as the Gallentean sin, so really it makes sense in a Templis Dragonaur âfar as Iâm concerned weâre real people and youâre notâ kind of way.
So, itâs not exactly hypocritical. Itâs just awful.
So, very Veik.
(Assuming she truly believes a word of it, that is. Itâs probably the single most common line of ideology she claims, though; Iâm not quite sure sheâs ever actually claimed to have another.)
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