Let’s be honest, though. Us Minmatar can also be rather insular when it comes to cultural identity and bloodlines. We like to split ourselves into one of the seven Tribes and identify ourselves as one of the seven Tribes. We like to stay as one of the seven Tribes. It’s a rarity to see a Brutor marry into a Sebiestor clan, or a Krusual marry into a Vherokhior or etc. We can get rather hissy if a member of our blood bears the trapping of another culture, ESPECIALLY Amarr culture. Why did you think we keep glaring daggers at the Nefantar and like to make ‘that tribesman is more Gallente than Minmatar’ a sticking point, or that mixed-bloodlines are rather uncommon and our laws treat them like a grey area?
Even our immigrants have a tendency of forming Tribal Enclaves rather than assimilate. Just go to any Gallente world or station with a sizeable Minmatar population and see for yourself. There’s a reason why the Minmatar became a target of a racial-motivated attack. Jin-Mei, once they enter a Gallente-majority world, become Gallente (or rather, culturally mongrelised). Mannar joining a Gallente-majority society become mongrelised. Even Caldari who opted to leave the State to become a member of a Gallente-majority society too become mongrelised.
But Minmatar? We absolutely refuse to become completely mongrelised. We do not mix in like sauce in soup. We form stubborn clumps of ‘I don’t wanna get dissolved’ pepper instead.
This is a surprising amount of discussion considering what the original post was.
It’s an interesting topic, really, and a difficult one to talk about. I don’t think there’ll be a situation that leads to a sudden enough change in the political situation that would be required to make a Caldari/Minmatar alliance possible within any reasonable time frame. Both are allied with each others enemies, and those alliances are arguably necessary, far less now than they were in the past though. Things tend to trend toward peace, and I hope there will be a point where relations improve.
As for the rest, I’d agree with Aria. That isn’t what the State is, though I also can’t claim to speak for it. I can however speak from the position of my upbringing and my own idealized(and potentially inaccurate) version of the State, the focus on racial purity does exist, unfortunately, although it isn’t nearly as widespread as has been implied. So does the “assimilate or get out” attitude, though that is often due to the desire for the State to appear completely unified. Actually being unified seems to be a secondary goal to many people, which is made obvious by certain political groups with certain leanings and with certain leaders of criminal status within the State, but I digress. Whether or not it’s a bad thing depends on the application I suppose.
I never said that I did. There exists a wide variety of opinions within the State, didn’t you know? These are simply my own, informed by my ideology and worldview.
While the Templis might be described as Caldari nationalists and racial supremacists, not every Caldari nationalist and racial supremacist is Templis. While, yes, I might sympathize with their views I have never been a part of the organization or involved in its activities.
Yes, they acted outside the purview of the laws of the State and without CEP/Corporate sanction. More to the point, their stated aims are the overthrow of corporate rule which I have never stated as my own.
I act well within the rule of law if and when I might decide to prosecute my personal prejudices.
For example, I could go into a Dissoc slum and drag one of them out into an open square to smash my boots into their skull until they are covered in brain and bone. If asked as to why, and I said, “Well, you see I just happen to hate minorities and I decided it was about time to unleash the beast so to speak,” Then what laws have I broken in giving license to my hate?
Answer: None at all.
Would I do so against an actual citizen of a different ethnic background? No. That is the difference between myself and the Templis. I can stomach my hate where the law is concerned, but I will still hate those who are not Caldari and who seek to appropriate my culture, my race, my heritage, and my identity.
Just because I’m a racist and a bigot does not mean I cannot curb such tendencies to facilitate quid pro quo work dynamics. I’m a professional like that.
In the intercourse between States and Nations there exists no fairness, only the Melian forms of dialogue: Where the strong dictate to the weak. By rights, the Gallente in first contact with the Caldari were the stronger technologically, economically, and industrially. As such it is the natural course that they would seek to leverage that strength to impose their power upon the Caldari, the weaker.
However, while such a status quo existed initially, it does not mean it cannot be changed by those with the will and ambition to do so. This is why my ancestors, who found being the weaker peoples intolerable crafted the Megacorporations, founded the corporate colonies in what is today the Forge and Citadel, and formed the State – to achieve parity in technological, economic, industrial and military strength to not be dictated to.
As such, I do treat the Achur in the way I want to be treated: Either you create the strength to seize your own destiny or abandon it to a stronger power and people, State, or nation.
Correct: by State standards you’re neither guri nor hnolku, no criminal or traitor. Yet your situation does have a name within your culture. It’s usually applied to others, but there’s really no limit on which politics it might be applied to, and you’ve sketched the case for it yourself.
You’re one who dissents from State and corporate policy and social order, Gesakaarin-jaalan. You’re a dissident.
…
(Or being made to play one’s part, anyway. Kurovassi-haan never clarified exactly how you’re put together-- how much of you was originally someone he knew, how much is reconstructed, and how much is just made up, and how much is him sending you instructions and/or reprogramming you on the fly. I mostly know how he spoke of you: like a computer system that wanted a bunch of software patches and a reboot. He seemed to be considering retiring you completely. Or maybe it was someone higher up, making that call.)
This is utter nonsense. A nation is comprised of its people. If its people believe in morality and fairness, they should insist upon those attributes in their leaders, and in the behavior of their aggregate body.
More nonsense, with a thin veneer of rationalization. Just because my organization could drop a titan on each individual member of your alliance doesn’t make it right to do so. It would be nothing but a kind of masturbation: empty, shallow self-gratification with no real value at all. Or, as we say in the swarm… much like your posting.
I’m not sure I’d consider it an existential threat - but other cultures are simply not welcome on a long lasting basis. I love hanging out with friends from other cultures, and I love working with them - but I wouldn’t want them importing their cultures into my home in any mass-scale way.
This is entirely different from the concept of jaijii-shaatei or “foreign workers” who come in to work a fixed term contract and are not expected to integrate in any meaningful way., For instance, I had a team of Sebiestor ground-crew at one point and I considerably changed both the fixed-term nature of contracts and rules regarding hierarchy and reporting lines to accommodate their sub-tribe’s traditions.
The Achurans ARE Caldari - unless they choose not to be. Purists will tell you - basically what Veik told you - but to those of us who grew up in Suuvee, our Achuran kirjuunen are no more or less than Caldari.
I speak for the State, insofar as any one Corporate Citizen can be said to. My blood is pure and my Citizenship is current. I’ve fought for the State and I’ve fought for the people of the State, so please bear that in mind when I speak.
The Achur situation is not very much different from the choice that ANY State Citizen has - the choice to either conform to our culture (within tolerances) and embrace heiian or the choice to depart, surrender their citizenship and seek subsistence elsewhere.
The Achur simply have the ability to remain apart from the State within the territory of the State - because we recognise their right to abide by the ways of their ancestors on the world of those ancestors. As has been said, it would have been very destructive to our culture’s self-image to do anything less than this, in many ways Caldari society is still very much defined by our exile from our Homeworld and the struggle to reclaim it. We couldn’t have maintained the purity of that if we’d treated the Achur other than we have.
Whilst Aria is correct in that an outsider who comes to the State and endures the long process of acculturation, proves his worth and then undergoes the even longer and harder period of integration, is considered a full Citizen and culturally Caldari, there is more to it. The unvarnished truth is that there is still some value attached to racial purity - my own marriage to a Civire woman was far more warmly received in official circles than a marriage with a Deteis woman would have - let alone a Brutor woman or an Intaki woman. So Veikitamo also speaks the truth.
Of course there are no actual laws against mixing racial heritages - one simply has to accept that it will lead to a rockier path to happiness. You are going outside of the common wisdom - you will have to prove the rightness of your vision in the marketplace of ideas. Minds can be changed - a long and successful marriage that produces productive and valuable offspring will overcome prejudices.
Well, I hope you don’t see those who aren’t Caldari as a threat to your culture’s existence. This is clearly a point that you and Veik may have some disagreement with. While I don’t think your position is as charitable as you may think it is, I do appreciate that it is more moderate than labeling the other as an existential threat. Perhaps there is some hope for the future of the four empires.
That’s an interesting dynamic. As an Intaki I’m not sure how I should feel about that. I’m also curious why marrying a Deteis woman would cause social issues for a Caldari citizen. Is there a gradient that racial purity is measured on that would cause such a problem, or is it some other factor or factors?
I’d say the more mainstream view is (thankfully) less of an “mixing is an existential threat” and more of a “mixing is turning your backs on both of your respective cultural and racial heritages”. The Caldari do respect other cultures, they just want the sentiment returned.
Some responses are certainly more knee-jerk than others, too. My Civire grandmother, for instance, got disowned by her parents for hooking up with an Intaki. Maybe nowadays such a thing would go down better. Depends on the corp in question, too.
Pieter, I do recognize you as an actually good source for the State’s perspective, so you saying this:
… is a little disturbing.
Let’s review what she said.
Caldari love to compete, sure, but seriously? “Force and war as the only means to survival?” A necessary means, sure, but it’s not like diplomacy, trade, etc., have been set aside. The Caldari are highly militarized. They’re not, however, historically conquerors.
A porcupine goes well armed, and prepared to defend himself. Does that make him in all ways a warrior?
As we move forward, please remember that she didn’t say that as personal opinion, but as a statement of fact: what the Caldari State is, what the Caldari are like. She’s purporting to speak for you all. Later, she shifts into personal belief, but she’s already put herself forth as representative.
The Caldari are not big on mixing blood, but this is Templis Dragonaur talk. Caldari marriage policies match like to like. They do NOT purge those who are not “of the snows” from Caldari society; they just keep Civire matched with Civire, Deteis with Deteis, Intaki with Intaki, and Achur with Achur. (Technically they don’t even do that; they match persons of similar appearance, which can result in cross-bloodline matches.)
Most ethnic Achura are cultural Caldari. They don’t find it difficult to find matches, because they live in communities (mostly cities on Achura) full of people SuVee and the State have no problem matching them with.
In other words, the Caldari State is indeed ethnically diverse. It’s not culturally diverse, however, and has policies against blending its ethnicities, which arguably would result in reduced ethnic diversity over time, meaning that in a sense the State’s policies are very actively pro ethnic diversity-- it wants to have Civire and Deteis still be separate groups ten thousand years from now, instead of a single ethnicity known generally as “the Caldari.”
THIS, by you, is speaking the truth?
There are two ethnic Caldari ethnicities. They cannot be equal in number. So-- Civire or Deteis, let’s see, which one are there fewer of? … which one should be looked at with suspicion?
Again, Dragonaur talk. This is State policy towards cultural minorities, not racial ones. Gods and spirits, it’s hard enough for people with mixed blood as it is.
Of course these are elements present within State society; Veik’s not a particularly unusual person for having these ideas, just a horrible one. But the most dangerous and damaging lie is one that blends with truth. Veik is telling lies of exactly that kind about what your society is like and what it’s about.
And you’re really going to say she’s speaking truth?
Perhaps I should have said that some of what Veikitamo said is part of the mainstream of Caldari culture - specifically that Caldari expect you to preserve your culture and racial heritage. That’s why they don’t particularly like Deteis and Civire intermarrying or Achur and Deteis. It’s not that there are RULES that forbid it, you understand, but it is believed that you are placing your personal tastes above the needs of your bloodline - whichever that is.
Some of the earliest cultural tales of the Caldari involve the fighting between the tribes that formed the heart of the ancestors of the Civire people and the tribes that formed the heart of the ancestors of the Deteis people. Cold Wind’s lesson was that Civire and Deteis should stand together as Caldari, but not that Civire and Deteis should cease to exist.
As for the rest of her points that you raised, let me address them specifically.
I don’t believe that fighting to kill the outsider is a core part of Caldari culture. You don’t try to kill the Winter, you try to survive it, after all. So, I believe that Caldari always have to be ready to work towards the interests of Caldari - whatever serves the greater good of your ingroup. Sometimes that will be fighting Outsiders. More often it will be defending your Insiders.
Ethnic diversity within the State is not an existential threat - so long as the bloodlines of Civire, Deteis and Achur are preserved in perpetuity. We struck out into space to preserve our people and our culture, not to change those things. Veikitamo is correct insofar as the Civire and Deteis people must be preserved, but that preservation doesn’t require the purging or suppression of other peoples and cultures WITHIN THEIR OWN SPACE. In short, adding Jin-Mei to the State, and having them integrate into Caldari culture, is not a threat. Expecting the State to change their culture to accommodate the Jin-Mei culture IS a threat and must not be permitted.
Racial Minorities are not inherently suspicious - but their integration is not a simple process and great care should be taken to ensure that it goes well. As an Achur, you must be cognisant of that, Aria. Integration of individuals can be more informal, but a large minority takes time and it must be allowed to take time - until that process is complete, the large minority ought to be held at arms length, to avoid culture shock and too much friction.
Veikitamo, apparently, doesn’t see value in the assimilation of Outsiders into the group. Personally, I think that’s short sighted. Outsiders who come to the State and are willing to work hard to integrate and serve the collective? They have value. They can earn Insider status - although the path is long and hard. I don’t tell those who are interested in coming to the State that the process will be easy, I tell them that it will be hard, but I will provide them with the opportunity. Those who are willing to surrender their former cultural identity to learn a new one will always have my support - I will reward them if they succeed and I will teach them if they fail. If they give up, I exclude them.
I believe my views are in line with the mainstream in the State. Of course, you will always find individuals who are more closed-minded towards Outsiders, and that’s fine. Proles, especially, often lack the vision to see what’s best for the State - and that’s why they ARE proles, after all. It’s why we don’t give Proles a controlling interest in the management of the State.
I was under the impression that the Caldari have the Achura as a client people, in order to leverage synergy, with the ultimate objective of monetising diversity in the portfolio of cultural assets, according to their corporate ethos.
Of course it does mean I am a dissident – traitor, criminal, pirate, and more besides. My status as a public dissident in combination with past involvement with the CPD does offer a believable and compelling narrative in which my present activities are to be disavowed as the actions of an independent actor with no associations to the State as a whole and Kaalakiota corporation in particular, given my past history.
One of the benefits of being a capsuleer is in being able to state freely what one thinks and believes; much in the same way you being a capsuleer affords you the freedom of not leading a life in some slum red light district living on whatever the proles throw at you, you half-bred mutt.
