Wassa madda?
You don liek Capitalism?
You auh commie or sumthin?
Edit: Ah guess so what with those flags n all.
Hello @CCP_Paragon , @CCP_Swift ,
This is not the first time you have dared to show us this very eloquent graph of the distribution of wealth among all active players in New Eden.
However, what leads me to come and comment on it for the first time is the fact that, like our IRL leaders, history has therefore ultimately still taught you nothing.
Also, if you really want to understand why absolutely everything is now going from bad to worse, then simply revise your economic and social science courses, especially all those relating to inequalities!
Fight of the Century: Keynes vs. Hayek - Economics Rap Battle Round Two - YouTube
A quick reminder of the basic definition of the Gini index:
"The Gini index (or coefficient) is a synthetic indicator that measures the level of inequality for a given population. It varies between 0 (perfect equality) and 1 or 100% (extreme inequality). Between 0 and 1 , the inequality is all the stronger as the Gini index is high.
It is equal to 0 in a situation of perfect equality, where the variable takes on an identical value for all the individuals in this population. It is equal to 1 in the situation of total inequality, where the variable is equal to 0 for the whole of this population, with the exception of a single individual.
The inequalities thus measured can relate to quantitative variables, such as income, wages, wealth, common goods, etc.
Like IRL, New Eden therefore suffers from a much too high Gini index!
Like IRL, New Eden is collapsing!
The reason for this? PLEXs!
By creating the PLEXs to counter the ISK black market, while contributing to CCP’s sole profit IRL, and therefore not to that of the players in return for their expenditure of time in game, you have allowed a scientifically well-known evil IRL , to come and spread within the persistent universe of New Eden.
May I ask you to please reproduce the same graph below, but this time with player data from, say, 2006 or 2007, i.e. only three or four years after launch of the game in 2003.
Oh ! You no longer have access to this datas? It is very regrettable!
Because the simple fact of comparing these two graphs, that of 2006 or 2007, and that of 2022, would allow you, I am sure, to better understand you by the figures, in particular all those specific to the Gini index, the long-term consequences of the mere introduction of PLEXs within New Eden.
Indeed, what you believe to be a perfect in-game trickling device between wealthy players and poor players is strictly not one in reality; the mere introduction of PLEXs has only invited inequalities, namely all those already measurable IRL, within New Eden, thus asphyxiating at the same time, its entire virtual market, gradually pushing the poor players towards the exit.
In other words, EvE Online has indeed become a pay to win game…
So say: where is your chief economist who started all this?
So. Try To Fly Safe Again. Or Not.
Tic Tac Tic Tac …
Ully Loom
ps: you know dear Hilmar, maybe you should think about creating a scientific library within CCP, so that all your employees can come and consult it from time to time; it is because EvE Online is above all a science fiction game, that it would be really important to consider it, and this in order to enlighten the continuation of your developments; only then will the cash come back; so what the hell are you waiting for; SAVE New Eden…
1 Like
About the ISK held by percentage of player base and those richest players. Can we get an est. of how rich the richest and poorest players of that group are?
How much isk is held by players who are employees of CCP? We know they are permitted legitimate characters.
A less charitable person would think that that report was deliberately divisive; I don’t know, maybe to factionalise a growing consensus of players and a united player advocacy.
Yet I would not consider CCP capable of such Imperialistic tactics.
9 Likes
6 Likes
Now here’s a guy looking for a silver lining.
@CCP_Paragon any chance we can get an exact isk number for the share of wealth %.
I think some of us would like to know if we’re cracking the top 10%.
1 Like
No. The people who have the most liquid ISK in EVE did not get there by selling PLEX. They got there by relentless market activity and market manipulation, over more than a decade, often with the support of large blocs of players whose actions supported and magnified the effects of their manipulation.
For example: buying up raw ice in massive quantities at low prices, then triggering the original Ice Interdiction and selling off those stockpiles as the price spiked. That one incident took Aryth roughly 6 weeks (out of over 15 years) and made him trillions. The alliance benefitted, both from the social bonding of the activity, having some prior awareness (and so being able to invest alliance resources into ice as well), individual members benefitted (via nebulous ‘you guys should invest in ice’ forewarnings in our GS_ISK jabber room), but Aryth himself made absolute bank.
And, again, that’s one incident in a career of basically constant market manipulation.
So no, PLEX isn’t the boogeyman you think it is.
You’re not. Seriously, if you have to ask, you’re not.
3 Likes
Hello,
Excuse me @Arrendis , but what you write here in no way constitutes a contradictory demonstration about me since you absolutely do not go back to the cause of this incident in the New Eden market that you mention, knowing moreover that there is no hasn’t had one since, say, 2008.
This is why I suggest to CCP to reproduce here the same wealth distribution graph, but for the period 2006 or 2007, so that we can compare it with that of 2022. Without this graph, this report presented in this way is of no interest. .
The fact that CCP has brutally broken with its original commitments consisting in never interfering with the persistent universe of New Eden and its market, is indeed the major cause of the reversal of both the economic and playful balance of the game.
It is imperative to clearly understand that this higher level of interference in the persistent universe that is attributed to CCP in spite of us, is the equivalent, if I may say so, of a divine posture. Yes, you read well. But if in the case of the real world any declaration of the existence of a God is a matter of belief, then in the case of the virtual world, such as the universe of New Eden, it is unfortunately now a matter of fact.
Like many publishers of online video games, CCP made the mistake of believing that it could control everything in its own interest. Instead, the gradual loss of players now shows them just the opposite, because in the virtual absence of subscribers, it will be their entire livelihood that will go up in smoke.
You have to understand the fact that it is also all the pleasure of playing EvE Online that was suddenly disrupted by this sudden change in behavior on the part of CCP. The 2011 crisis was the perfect demonstration of this, except that CCP probably learned nothing from it.
We must therefore very seriously consider in the future the writing of a law prohibiting any publishing company from interfering with the course of things in the persistent universe that it has previously created, as these illegitimate interferences can have a catastrophic impact on the psychological state, even psychiatric, of the players, then by ricochet, on the state of the game itself in fine; some recent topics on this forum have also given a perfect illustration of this…
Hence the need for orderly regulation of the sector at the highest level, because New Eden is only one example taken from among others.
That being said, it is rare to see a company share with its players the economic data of the persistent universe it has created. What is less rare, on the other hand, is that she draws the right conclusions from it. However, on this point, CCP does not manage to bend this rule and therefore wrongly falls into the analytical off-topic.
This is not only harmful for the entire community, which continues to empty itself of all its veterans in the almost general indifference of a whole new generation of players with very dubious behavior, it is also and above all harmful for the editor himself who is literally throwing his baby out with the bathwater.
Such a waste ! A mess that no amount of publicity or mass propaganda can reverse. Only a return to the source could reverse the current steam, and even then, as the damage to the community is already immense.
Again, over 17 million characters have been created in New Eden. Where have all the players gone? Why doesn’t CCP let them speak? There is a whole field of solutions here that remains totally unexplored by the publisher…
Because it is certainly not the players with the biggest CB who will save this MMO-RPG-RTS which has become in fact in 15 years, a simple combat arena, and still…
Ully Loom is now a completely restructured character in ALPHA since the +33% inflation crisis, and this after more than 19 years of existence, and she will remain so until CCP shows a real sign of positive change in the world. benefit of its persistent universe and its players.
But the worst part of this story is that EvE Online has well and truly become in 15 years, a real textbook case of everything that should not be done with a persistent universe; I also dare to hope that European regulators will use it as an example when writing the next directives that will impose themselves on all these subjects.
So. Try To Fly Safe Again. Or Not.
Ully Loom
You claimed the economic imbalance was caused by PLEX. The cause of this incident (the ice interdiction) was the decision being made to interdict specific types of highsec ice because of where hostiles lived and what kinds of ice they and we were making money off of at the time. It was in no way related to PLEX. At the time, PLEX was a very niche product that was selling for less than 1/10th what it is today, and was useful only for game time in a subscription-only game model. It wasn’t a thing you really made a lot of money on.
Rather, the big private moneymakers at the time for seed cash were privately-held moon mining towers for T2 production. Then you go into market manipulation.
. . . what?
Also factually untrue. CCP’s been ‘interfering’ in the game through and outside of the market literally the entire time the game’s existed. Do you think introducing battleships didn’t interfere with the market? Or moon-mining itself, in its original form? Every change CCP makes to the game interferes with the persistent universe and the market. Every single one. To insist that a game developer shouldn’t is to tell them they shouldn’t develop their game.
The ‘major cause’ of the ‘reversal of […] the economic’ balance of the game is caused in large part by CCP’s changes, but it’s absolutely insane to say they can’t ‘interfere’. You talk about the 2011 crisis (The Summer of Rage), but that was a significantly different creature than the current long-term decline. 2011 was about a lot of things, including a naked cash-grab, an openly expressed attitude of ‘exploit the players’, and most notably, massive promises that then got half-assed because CCP wasn’t smart enough to just license an engine for WiS.
Right now, CCP is still at least presenting the proper ‘we tried something, it didn’t work, it was a hard lesson, we’re trying to make it better’ messages about the ecosystem overhaul. It’s inevitable that some things aren’t going to work. It wasn’t inevitable that they’d need 3 years to implement what could’ve just been one massive (and drastic) patch, they didn’t want to ‘interfere’ too much at once.
AHAHAAHAHAHAAHAAHAAHAAH.
CCP owns EVE. They own your character. They own every story you tell your friends about what you did in EVE. ‘Let’s pass a law telling intellectual property owners what they can do with their property that doesn’t even exist outside of their computer system’. That’s rich. You are here voluntarily. You don’t like the product, unsubscribe. I did. Still don’t like it? Stop playing.
5 Likes
I’m going to say this…
One of the few things that decades old players look too is the data that CCP choose to report…
Its wrong - we all know it’s wrong - Personally, for me, it wasn’t the market manipulation it was the T2 BPO’s handout but Meh.
It was never Fixed but you know what ? POS CODE - that goes hand in hand with T2 stuff… how long has it been since POS and associated structured were supposed to be removed ?
Sadly, CCP (or it’s owners) are not able to currently reverse the decline in anything to do with the mainstream game indy players.
I fall into that group.
For a Decade, I built ships to be exploded on a weekend… I havent built even one this year.
Why ? Because, CCP ■■■■■■ up the BPO requirements to build them…
The MER will continue to fall until someone has the balls to say…
“Let’s makeIT fun again”
FixIT.
T20, however, was widely acknowledged by CCP as someone cheating. That puts it in a different category of ‘things that screwed stuff up’.
A number of the devs have taken that position. Personally, I think they need to succeed, not just ‘have the balls to say’ it.
1 Like
T2 BPO’s still exist tho… as does POS code…
It needs to end… Tell me a “new” recruit that knows what a POS is or what strategic value it has and then ask them how many hitpoints it has ? After that, Explain to them how to set a Password on the shield… Yeah… Right,
And CCP wonder why production is down…
I’d love to see how much ISK is held vs player, I truly would since I have never been a part of the “Null Bloc” but to be fair, what good would it do ?
You only have to visit a few “In Game” channels to find Eve’s more wealthy players… and to be fair, you only need to know half of those - less even - to survive in Eve…
It’s good to see the people that ARE the backbone of EvE Industry in here…
@CCP - please take an interest.
** EDIT ** there’s still a good few names missing… I hope those that are still login. Please do contribute here as it seems to be to me the best place for changes to occur.
Sure, so, we’ll get rid of POS’s before CCP feels all of the functionality they need to retain is duplicated. At the same time, we’ll make the megablocs even more dominant in null, because small groups won’t have anywhere they can keep their supercapitals safely. Don’t tell me about tethering, you can get bumped off if someone runs a suicide cyno in to drop a couple of faxes right on top of your super/titan at the wrong moment.
Yup, and have for more than a decade. At this point, they’re simply part of the landscape, and most of them are not in the hands of the original recipients. Trying to track down all of the individual BPOs and remove their influence would also mean—for the sake of consistency—tracking all of the ships made with them, all of the ISK made through the trading of those ships, all of the ships blown up by ships made off those BPOs…
How many lifetimes have you got, and are you gonna pay CCP to hire people to do that digital forensics? By the time T20 got caught, it was already a bookkeeping nightmare to try to tackle. So CCP just said ‘screw it, we all have to play it where it lays’.
And frankly, that was the right choice. Disasters happen. We move on. Trying to now lump that in with everything else as ‘OMG, CCP how could you?’ when really, it was 1 bad actor who got caught, and CCP made the best they could of the situation… it’s just foolish.
1 Like
There is no longer a need to log in when living in 0.0
-10 Accounts. CCP thanks for the great changes
You would like more money from and for which service on your part?
1 Like
what have you done with my money for the last 2 years ? Destroyed the industry ? Where’s the new content for old players ? (I forgot, CCP doesn’t want the old players anymore )
Aren’t you wondering about the declining number of players? You don’t post this statistic? Turn off the server now
2 Likes
Bud, I agree with you, TOTALLY, in principal, but… HOW F*ekking long have CCP had now to remove the OLD, Outdated POS code that people like you and me know how to use, yet NEW players haven’t a clue about ?
I mention this, just because, new players (even if they have an idea of what an overview is) have no CLUE what a forcefield is, let alone a POS.
For me @Arrendis and it’s ONLY my personal opinion here, but I do live in a womhole and have the greatest loss to lose… I totally agree, things change with the space you live in - maybe it’s the case that you know new players that fly supers bud… Maybe those guys that fly Said Supers, AND can field the FAX support needed to undock them are NOT NEW PLAYERS ?
It’s not about the POS code - It’s NOT about how crappy (Insert - where you live) happens to be…
The very fact that it exists (as do T2 BPO’s) give new players a MASSIVE DISADVANTAGE.
I am 100% on your side that things need to change Bud, and sooner than later, AND depending on where you live.
The saddest thing for us wormholers that I can see here on the forum’s is that we only have one “Constant” voice that speers us on and that is @Brisc_Rubal.
They are Pixels.
Remove them, just like removing small ship assembly arrays, just like any other BPO that CCP removed or updated (Read here CAP Ships)
It’s NOT a new concept to CCP to remove or modify stuff but I feel that it would piss off the big alliances that have the cash to “Pay for these” and “Collect” them over the years would NOT be beneficial to retaining players. ( I mean - it’s a well known fact that this was flawed from the start.) - Oh, wait, what ? New players do not know this ? (ahem)…
Right place, Right Time Bud… the Right time for CCP to do the right thing is now and Abolish all this crappy OLD Shite and bring the game into the modern era…
The MER needs more love from those who have played EvE Online - and can teach - new players - how to survive.
CCP SURE are not giving that love out - my hope is that with discussion, we can change things up.
Keep up the fight @Arrendis 
No, the guys that fly the supers aren’t. But other people in their alliances are. If those small groups aren’t viable in null, then the only way new players get into null is by joining one of the mega-blocs. As it is, the large blocs already have advantages that can’t be matched by anyone else in the game, just in terms of the amount of manpower and man-hours we can put toward solving any given problem better, and faster, than anyone else can.
You want to cement us in as the only real choice for newbies, even more than we already are, right now?
If not, then those newbies need places they can go in null, groups they can join. But in order to be able to hold space in null, you need to be able to hold that space. And that means supers. Which means either a keepstar, or dropping a POS.
And PanFam and FRT sure as hell aren’t going to allow some small group to drop a keep someplace. We might get touchy if it’s within range of us, but we might not, depending on what the diplos say. But them? PandaFam has already turned huge swatches of null into rental slums, hoovering up everything they can lay claim to with no intent toward using it themselves. Instead, they’re making serfs of people who just want to play in null without having to deal with all the bullshite that comes from being part of the megablocs.
A small group that can operate a small supercapital force to try to defend its space isn’t a threat to their space, or their fleets. It’s something far, far more existential: it’s a threat to their business model. It’s a threat to how they exploit small groups so they can sit back on their entitled rears and make money without doing any work.
You have to look at the second- and third-order effects of these changes. Don’t just see the move, see the chessboard.
3 Likes