What about players that dont want to fight each other but would do hard PVE? I think CCP found da wae.
to annoy people like this meme does?
Please dont hate on cute memes.
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Thanks for your reply. You didn’t keep it short, but I really appreciate that. It is worth much more to have detailed views on the matter as a base for discussion, than just collections of “I hate it” or “I love it”. Since you made the effort, I’ll jump right in to do the same without meaning for this to be a retort.
I agree with you in that there are a lot of things CCP should have picked up or continue to work on. Specifically the once promised constant rebalancing of ships to keep us on our toes, but also some other things. Should have. We can keep on beating the dead horse of all the things that CCP should do, but what exactly is that good for? If the Dev Team could do all those things, they would.
But why do we even want balance, what’s the rationale behind that buzzword? Mostly, when speaking about it we refer to ship and module balance or more specifically the stats that those have in relation to others and to game mechanics. Two important ideas of balance are:
- We don’t want any ship/setup become a permanent go-to option for too many situations, as this devaluates SPs in other skill trees as well as limit the depths of choice in the game.
- The hope that balancing ships and modules would bring more and more fun fights/content.
While I agree with the first point, I don’t believe the 2nd part is really grasping the game. It seems when we’re speaking about game balance or the lack therof, we’ve grown used to immediately jump to module or ship balance and point the finger at CCP for doing rarely anything with it. It’s a weird loop, which keeps us comfortable, because we already know the culprit and we can shake off any questions about wether module stats are really the problem.
To be frank, I don’t think the game can be balanced around module stats, and only partly by ship stats. I don’t want to get too deep into that for now, but I think the rather heavy challenge is how to keep a game both stable and interesting, when this game is supposed to be sandbox, balanced and continuous at the same time.
Taken that every player is affected differently by that constellation, the ideas about what a balanced game would be, are very different. And I don’t even mean bias caused by vested interest, but really the particular part of game reality that differs from player to player. Let’s hold this thought for a moment and go back to the concept of balance.
People say the most dangerous module is the cyno and the best ship is friendship. Combined these two factors outweight the influence of specific stats on ships or modules. Everybody has this experience and yet we talk as if the only fights that ever occur are 1v1 in the top belt. I’m not saying don’t balance module stats for 1v1, I’m saying this approach does not reflect game reality.
The hope that tweaking module stats to a perceived end-goal of “balance” will fix the game, is not realistic. It’s a fight against windmills. Instead of trying and failing at the impossible repeatedly, I think it was indeed a better idea to break the chains of what we were used to and try a completely new approach.
If CCP could only ever earn disapproval for trying the impossible thing players want them to do, why not give the act of balancing into players hands? That’s how I perceived the possible influence of Mutaplasmids. More sandbox, despite RNG. Surely, one could have come up with entirely different concepts for this and this is where I agree with you again: this part of the expansion was brought out too unfinished.
Now, going back to different game realities. One of the declared goals of introducing Mutaplasmids was to shake up the meta. Maybe it would have been more correct to speak about metas, considering those fundamentally different ways to PVP or generally to play the game.
So what would that mean, shaking up the metas? Especially so with changing module stats, either through hard setting by CCP or by stat-flexibility. The metas in FW, Wormholes, large Fleet fights, Solo Hunting, Whaling, Baiting, small Gang, medium Gang, Gatecamping etc. are not independent from each other, they are linked by ships, many of which use the same modules. One can’t re-balance one meta without directly influencing some other kind of content.
In that regard the old concept of hard setting module stats had its limitations. While I think CCP is all up for more fights, a module change that could deliver more of those in one meta, could be too oppressive in another. Now, with Mutaplasmids that doesn’t really change just yet. But, contrary to statically changing one module at a time, Mutaplasmids could allow players to balance their own setups for their own metas. Of course we are not there yet. Even if CCP introduced Mutaplasmids in a perfect state, players would still have to figure things out, possibly by shredding a bunch of their ships.
Mutaplasmids open up a path for CCP to step away from hard coded stats permanently fluctuating between being OP and crap. Well, at least in theory. In practise CCP seems to chicken out and did indeed what you called “flavor A” - condemning their new content to be largely useless.
That’s what I want to see change and besides all the things that need work, I’m still confident that “flavor B” is the way to go. I’d even say that the only way to balance the game is to make sure to have imbalance as a constant factor for everyone. People who start to PVP normally don’t have the experience to foresee how the fight will go. They have to go all in and try their best. Later on, a lot of fights will simply not happen, because players can predict the outcome pretty well. If they know they’ll lose, many won’t take the fight. Mutaplasmids can change that predictability. It encourages people to think about ways to win otherwise unwinable fights and risk it. Not if mutated modules are impractical for their pricetag though. It is okay to have stronger modules, if the other guys have stronger counters too.
Practically CCP would have a lot of work to do. Contracts are one important part of that. Upping the droprate of Mutaplasmids is another. Finally and I think most important would be some kind of change to the influence on stats. While some RNG is good for higher module(T1/T2/Faction) consumption, right now it is much too cluttered. As a first step to change that, I think the mutations should higher/lower stats in a few even steps + or - , not 0.01%. As much fun as .% could be for someone trying to create the tightest fitting ever, I think it makes fitting too much of a hurdle. Another thing would be to re-think the 3 groups of Mutaplasmids. I’m not sure what the best way would be. Maybe close to what you suggested, bind each group to a family of modules. And lastly, the stats themselves. With binding Mutaplasmid groups to module families (T1,T2,Faction,DED), they could easily find ways to avoid that a higher proliferation of M’s leads to any interference between the non-mutated version of modules.
Wall of text crits for 9000.
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It’s an interesting issue, as it touches major questions about EVEs game design.
Also, I’m hoping for more variety in fights aka more fun.
Also, I’ve grown bored of collecting more ISK than I need, and I’d like Mutaplasmids to be a reasonable way to turn my stashes of modules or some of my ISK into ship fits that can do things differently. See reason 2.
Tbh, looking at the MERs and the heavily industry focussed gameplay right now, I think the meta-game is boring af. Look at how hard the propaganda waves came from Goons on r/EVE after flipping those Citadels in the north a while back. The action didn’t speak for itself, they needed to amplify it by lowest forms of provocation. One guy who calls himself an artist, literally draw a picture where one of the opponents has a crap-turd in his mouth. That’s just below interesting. It’s being extreme for the purpose of getting any reaction, in a time where the meta-game has little to no meaning, because all that matters is having +1 Rorqual or +1 Bot in a race for who can create the highest overproduction. Even if all those Titans will one day be used for a proper meat grinder and not just as a stabilizer for unneccessarily growing empires, it will be a one time thing.
All that is left in my opinion is to shake up the meta of other forms of content and keep people involved, who don’t care about dick measuring in the form of ressource allocation.
The Abyss content is fail.
At best, a trivial gimmick.
I recommend you expend your attention/energy elsewhere.
You can do that.
Or you can sell or reprocess them as the rest of us do.
Mutaplasmids and mutating modules isnt going to make you rich.
What do abyss modules offer that deadspace or officer modules do not offer? If you want to waste your ISK on fun fittings, you can have that already with existing modules. Abyssal modules are not necessary for that.
I agree with the longer paragraph, however, but that’s again a CCPCSM forced way to play. CCPCSM want supers and titans to be the new battleships for reasons that I do not want to comprehend because these ships are neither fun nor enjoyable nor worth aspiring for once you learned the true nature of them. If you think Abyss will shake up the meta, you are wrong, because that PVE is also farmed by those who forced EVE into a stalemate. It’s nothing but a thinly veiled distraction from profound problems.
That’s not true. Abyssal modules can give the an edge to modules and even entire concepts that are underused in PVP, due to being too weak within the constraints of fixed stats balance or require setups too expensive for how risky they are. It’s mostly concerning the stats that do not change much between classical T2 and Faction modules. Also, as it was said before, some forms of encounter are pretty much mapped out in the old system. People know what to expect, people know about fits of the other and the general chances of winning or losing. This leads to precalculation of winning chance and too avoidance of fights.
I don’t know why they provide such great opportunity to build huge armies of Titans, but I assume it has something to do with some internal analysis about player retention.
Actually I said the opposite. Currently Mutaplasmids can’t shake up the meta, because in a number of ways its not fulfilling the goals CCP set out for. However, I think it could shake up at least some of the metas, and everybody having access to Mutaplasmids doesn’t change a thing about that.
I don’t want to be rude but you seem like you misunderstand the possibilities of mutaplasmids here.
And yet here you realize their potential.
But apparently it is only your hatred for CCP that blind you into thinking that whatever they can do would be garbage.
That’s a problem of many EVE players actualy, and many players for that matter, whatever the game.
The thing is that when you pick the average right, which CCP did perfectly with the mutaplasmid, the system balance itself alone. Statistics balance the system alone. But nobody understand a tiny bit of statistics ; actualy nobody has any ■■■■■■■ clue about what statistics actualy means.
There could be hundreds of mutaplasmids in each abyss pocket and the game wouldn’t be broken. The reasons have been developed before the release already. I can develop them again if you want, but mutaplasmids, with good average values, which they always had, cannot possibly break the game as far as balance is concerned.
Mutaplasmids could have been perfect for the players invested in the game and who like solo and small gang pvp. They would break nothing that officer modules already break, but they would have brought an amazing variety and novelty. The whole system had an air of hack’n slash which would have been a perfect addition in this game fir the niche it was fitted to.
But as usual idiots who where not concerned and didn’t understant anything screamed in fear.
At least CCP can easily buff it.
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Perhaps my memory is failing me… but it seems CCP made a big push years back to get most stuff that was contracts only onto the market. They did this because shopping contracts is not pleasant. Abyss mods take that to the extreme, requiring a check of every contract, not just the cheapest. Can’t even search based on mutaplasmid or base module types used…
I can’t imagine the mess fitting a ship would be if abyss mods became the norm, given the laughable contracts only.
Also, how exactly are KBs expected to estimate abyssal module value without anything but the name of it?
I find it hard to believe CCP thought through the implications of these modules before they were alerted by players, because almost nothing was done to prepare the game for them. I haven’t even bothered with the balancing issues and perhaps starting the bad trend of “if you haven’t played recently your stuff is outdated”…
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sigh mutated modules cannot become a norm because they are all different…
Don’t worry you’re not rude. But you seem to be very confused. To start with the most glaring one…
If your nightime gig is doing psychic readings in someone’s basement, I’ll recommend you don’t quit your day job. You aren’t a mind reader. Don’t pretend to read my mind or know my thoughts beyond what I’ve typed. If I hated this game, I wouldn’t be actively throwing money at it in the form of a subscription. In fact I can’t even think of a game I actively hate, because I’d never play a game I disliked to the point where I could conjure up that strong an emotion towards it.
So the first half of your post is misinterpreting what I said and creating anabsurd emotional strawman to argue against.
The second half is where you completely miss the point of what I was saying. The issue I pointed out was that having potentially infinite types of each individual module precluded them from being a part of the market window - the established and stable way which people compare prices and make purchases. My suggestion therefore was that mutatations would be handled like named tech 1 items so they could be part of the broader market instead of being dumped onto a contract system that wasn’t designed for it and can’t handle it. That’s probably one of the biggest problems with the expansion right there.
The rest of whatever it could or didn’t or never could break is largely irrelevant. Whether it’s buffed or not, or nerfed further, it was another example of content CCP released without properly supporting it. And that, right there, is the biggest shame because I want it to stick around. But the game has to be re-tooled support it, and the devs so far have not. The devs can create a totally OP doomsday but it doesn’t matter if they never create a titan that can field it. And so it goes, the abyss can’t break game balance because it’s not been properly integrated into the game. So I have no worries about it doing so. I’m just dismayed so much potential was completely squandered away by lack of development.
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I didn’t said you hated the game, I said you hate CCP. Do I need to quote you for you to realize it ?
And then you didn’t talked much about the market being the problem in your post I quoted.
And finaly, your post was a start to then talk about the subject that matter.
Like saying an animal can’t fall within the “norm” because each individual member of the species is slightly different…
But if your goal is to just be difficult, then please carry on
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mutated modules can offer variety, diversity and unpredictability, something that can only be good in the solo/small gang meta.
Now you’re saying something interesting : the norm for mutated modules then would be the average, considering your comparison, and the average for mutated modules is worse than the base module. Any norm in EVE would still be T2 or faction.deadspace/officer.
But I wasn’t only being difficult : the fact that mutated modules are all different means than any fit with a mutated module must be adapted to this very specific module. It means that you cannot simply copy/paste a fit with a mutated module. Which, in EVE, means that it cannot become a standard.
You use words like “must” and “cannot” a lot, without much to back them up…
Ok, doing laundry, and then bringing a dictionnary and some logic.
Great! You’ve needed logic for a while now!