Negative/toxic culture towards new players

I don’t understand the problem really. EVE is all about destroying what other people build or setup. Nothing but obliteration of opposing people’s assets, relations, investments, creations is the only goal in this game. Naturally. This leads to a warfare mindset where you don’t send flowers to your opponents but flowery language instead. The earlier these new players get accustomed to this mindset, the earlier the immense amount of help they receive can yield positive results for their gameplay experience and long term investment into the game, or lead to them realizing that EVE is not for them.

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OP maybe you reap what you sow. Stop being around toxic people and you’ll see less toxicity in EVE.

:wink:

OP is member of SEADC (SICO alliance) though. :wink: :face_with_hand_over_mouth: :blush:

(They notoriously teach nothing to their members and just exploit them as slaves so in a sense they are usually just as clueless as they were back when they started as usually that is the exact state they are still in due to lack of development in such a corp / alliance.)

:popcorn:

That’s very optimistic, in my estimate it will be around 3191 when instead of colonizing the solar system that budget will be spent on ScamCitizen to move it from progress 31% up to an all-time high of 33.5%

:upside_down_face:

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Toxic culture has various meanings.

I have even heard some people call games ‘toxic’ because they got killed in PvP… even though PvP is part of the basis of EVE gameplay.

Personally I see ‘toxic’ as something unrelated to the gameplay, where ‘toxic’ defines player behaviour and their words towards other players rather than the game mechanics they use.

But it looks like you agree on that, Lunavera:

It looks like you too think that the mechanics of ganking and PvP combat are part of the game and not toxic. Glad to hear that.

So, do I understand correctly that the toxic culture you experience is “what you see from players running the fleets where you are and how they are treating new players”?

Could you explain more about that? Which fleets do you join? How do they treat newer players? Is it your alliance or corporation that you notice this in or a different group?

Your experience in the fleets you join does not have to be representative for how all players in the game experience toxicity. It could be that you’re just surrounded by the wrong crowd.

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There’s lotsa different people in the game, all kinds… Mingling with toxic players isn’t a requirement. Don’t even have to chat with them.
So far I’ve only chatted with non-toxic players. But I’m more into flying in space than chatting.
Today I found a 40M module while ratting in .07 It sells for 70M on the market. Not sure if I’m going to sell or use it.
A good day’s wage…
Toxic aholes may not apply.

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Its simply “abuses a shared activity as a mean to use/harm people”. Of course this implies deception.

For example, people pushing their judgement on the person in a discussion are toxic.

Or people who play PVE together and one of them decide to actually shoot them.
See griefer, in that case it’s the same idea. Though griefing is about mechanism abuse, and toxicity about verbal/judgmental abuse. In both case they mean harm.

Or people who lead a fleet and expect everybody to be perfect and well aware of the non-spoken rules. I made that mistake several times :confused: "Why did you jump that gate " (I told him to 3 gates before. I could have repaid him without the judgemental attitude).

Or people who use a discussion to promote racist / religious / pseudoscientific beliefs .
The line is blurry between an idiot and a toxic person in that last example. See bitcoin chills. Or those “Eve is PVP” as if it was only about PVP. (It’s not : it’s also Player Versus Dev, and Everyone Versus Everything)

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Rather than hearing what you think about toxicity I would like to hear what defines ‘toxic’ for Lunavera Poxicon.

After all, it’s good to have a common understanding of which ‘toxic’ actions the opening post is talking about, because people can use the same word for different meanings.

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This is your experience, and while it is valuable and precious, it is only yours. I am new to EVE and have come into contact with many veterans and other newbros.
What I can say from my experience and the comments of the other new people I have spoken to is that the game is fun and the community is one of the most supportive and welcoming you will find. It is not perfect and there are always horrible elements, but these are in the minority.

The toxic interactions I can mildly agree are sometimes a bit too much, but as I play the game I see that it’s almost a rule in EVE that two opposing sides MUST ■■■■ talk to each other. I think the prime examples are null blocks. If you put them on the same system they will cuss each other out, but it is never out of any real malice. They have to keep the rivalry.
For new players it can be off-putting to be caught in the middle, but generally I would say the community is very friendly and welcoming to new people, with many willing to teach and guide newbies. Even the gate campers have an unwritten policy of compensating newbies for their losses, or at least some of them do.

This has been my experience.

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I started playing just over one year ago. I have met a lot of good people here. Some people get misunderstood. But overall online PvP games has never been for the thin skinned crowd.

This opening statement makes me ponder, is online PvP really your game? I mean to say, you don’t have to PvP, it is purely optional in many games. If you don’t take games too serious, you can enjoy them. I would really like to know what PvP game you enjoy playing, you also consider to be less toxic?

I have prior experience with World of Warcraft but it got way too boring. I joined Guild Wars in 2008, friends invited me to join other online role playing games. I played Rift, Star Trek Online, Guild Wars 2, Neverwinter D&D, Champions Online, Dungeons & Dragons Online, and Black Desert. In my opinion, nothing compares to the original Guild Wars. I prefer fantasy based games over sci-fi.

All of these games have both PvP and PvE aspects. Where they differ is open world PvP or arena PvP. Open world reflects the real world better. It isn’t like we only allow wars in coliseums these days. This game makes new players fair game on day one as opposed to Black Desert that allows players to be exempt until level 50. Here you get ganked flying around on autopilot. But that is game mechanics and has nothing to do with toxic players.

My husband has played some EA games that are strictly PvP only. Apparently from what he has said, they are a lot of “creme puffs” at EA. For example, one player got their account banned for calling the other player Russian. I wasn’t aware it is considered a dirty word. I have been in the room and the ones who have voice chat are shouting obscenities at their team. I never ran into anything like that here.

Some people say I am just thick skinned and stubborn. It takes all sorts of people to make the world go round. My best way to enjoy any game is to make it my own. I carve out a place for my characters to live and set up their agenda. I have ran guilds with large amounts of players before, it can be fun or it can become a daunting task. I try to have fun and let comments about how I play wash over me.

Have fun!

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Yet you are claiming that it has “various meaning” while it’s all about the same idea.

So what you are asking for is not the definition of toxic but the detail of the instances where OP noticed toxicity.
The difference between the two, is that the way you formulated it is toxic as it defines and pushes an issue on me per choice . You could have simply said “I would like to hear what (…)”

That being said I agree that it would be better if OP were to precise what he experienced and how this is toxicity.

I noticed old players encouraging newbros in help channels to do LS missions, just to kill them at the gates of LS.
I noticed players pretending that new players need to pay a fee to not be killed in HS.
I noticed players telling newbros to use expensive tankless fit and do anomalies in HS in a specific system, just so that they can kill and loot them.
Let’s say we have a very different experience of how newbros are welcomed.

If it’s an insult it does not need to be a dirty word.
I was told that CCP could also ban people for plain insults in local . Things like “you suck”, people told me to report but did not care enough.

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A balanced view, compelling and reasonable. A breath of fresh air!

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This is important. Although not stated, the implication is - surely - that some new players are greeted in the ways you mention, by some established players.

Unfortunately, there will always be a few people who cannot or will not perceive such nuances. For them, generalisation, especially of the polarising kind, will frequently colour their go-to opinion.

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The issue was the ability to use help channels to abuse newbros.
It took like 5 years before people banned them. Or maybe they left because bored ?

In that case, something existing is enough to be a general problem. Because it implies this is accepted to a degree. Especially on the official help channels. It became sanctioned toxicity.

There is no generalization. This happened, was brought to CCP, and no action were taken before long.
Not reacting is already a choice.

I have noticed old players guiding newbros on how navigate the menu
I have noticed old players guiding newbros on how to properly tank their ships
I have noticed old players guiding newbros towards organisation and corp dedicated to teach newbros, like Eve University and other newbro corps
I have noticed old players guiding newbros on what not to do and how to stay alive
I have noticed old players guiding newbros through pvp, manual piloting and the basic of fitting their ships
Let’s say we have a very different experience of how newbros are welcomed.

Yes, it’s about experiences. We all had our different experiences. The generalisation of unique views ignores how nuanced this conversation can be, but objectively the game has a community not hostile to new people.

A good observation, I am indeed asking the detail of the instances where OP noticed toxicity, because a an example would give us a common understanding, so know we are talking about the same thing when we say ‘toxic’ in this context.

I still disagree with you and insist that words (like ‘toxic’) can have different nuanced meanings.

For example you call me toxic for disagreeing with you, while I think it is toxic behaviour to call someone who disagreed with you toxic. Disagreements happen often when people communicate, but most mature people can accept such disagreements without resorting to name calling.

As I do not wish to make assumptions about what the OP is talking about I wish to hear them describe what happened that they thought was toxic, and not to hear the subjective definition of what Stefnia thinks toxic means.

The thing is, you can have 100 people helping, one single toxic person will make the game worse.
I’m not saying there are no nice people in the game. I’m saying, there are toxic people, and the effect of those people is enough to ruin the efforts of the nice people.
Try to do your work nice, but if your colleague decides to set the office on fire, that’s a bigger issue.

I’m not saying there are no nuances between the usages. I actually gave several examples which are all different “flavour” of the term.

No I did not. I called “the way you formulated” toxic for adding unnecessary personal judgements in the discussion. This way to formulate your sentence is longer than needed and this added length only serves to carry personal judgement.
I literally rewrote your message without the toxicity.

Yet this is not what I did. I did not call you toxic. I literally explained why the way your formulated is toxic, which is not name-calling. Explaining how you are toxic in a given post is not claiming you as a person are toxic, or that your posts are generally toxic. That is generalization.
Calling your out on the toxicity of your post is not name calling. Especially since the prevalence of toxicity is the topic.

Claiming that toxicity is not to be addressed IS toxic culture. So you somehow answer yourself in that post.
A good argument you could have had is that on the opposite of my claim, there was no judgement conveyed with your “rather than”, but this argument would be invalid as you literally compare what I think and what OP thinks, using it as a way to look down on me.

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I tend to disagree, as for a PvP player everyone who undocks is a valid target. There is no opt out. There’s no ’ you can’t shoot me…I’m only a PvE-er ’ option. That means everyone out in space is involved in PvP whether they like it or not.

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No, they are potentially involved in PvP.

Does not mean that the game is always PVP. It would be, if you were always forced to PVP. Many games are PVP in that regard ; Eve is not one of them.

If there are ways to play the game without ever meeting PVP action, then this is not a PVP only game.
A few days ago I did 100s of jumps in HS with AP. No loss incurred in the process.
It’s not PVP when you just have to buffer tank you cheap ships and avoid specific spots to not have any interference.

Eve is not a PVP game. It’s a sandbox, with high PVP activity.

What’s the difference ? Does one have to actually shoot a bear to be ‘bear hunting’ ?

Yes.
A PVP game is not one if you don’t actually PVP.

Games are defined by the experience they provide, or intend to provide, to their users.
If you are not experiencing PVP then you are not experiencing a PVP game. You are experiencing a sandbox. Which is what most people are actually looking for in Eve, judging by the amount of people never leaving HS .

Which makes all those “but this is a PVP game” argument BS.
It’s not. Never has been.
If it was, people could not farm and build their sand house. And would just leave, which can happen when peope are actually affected by PVP in HS and lose any interest in the game.

Eve has PVP almost everywhere, still it is not a PVP game. The simple fact that you lose your ship makes players PVP averse.

So a bear is not in any way involved in bear hunting if it just sits there and ignores the hunter and sticks its fingers in its ears ?

Those must be the ones that end up as rugs.