That you stoop to calling me an idiot says a lot to me but let’s put that aside for a minute.
I didn’t once say eve isn’t a skill based game. However, skill isn’t the only factor in a game.
Given two people of equal skill the person who can access the better equipment is going to have an edge.
Given two people of equal skill the person who can call on assistance or more assistance is going to have the edge.
Given two people of equal skill, equipment and with as many wing men an edge can still be found in the intel available to them, the tools they have access to, the infrastructure.
Skill is by far not the only factor in the game and my point was of course you can’t go carve out null in a rookie ship because people have been playing the game for decades and this is no longer the Wild West.
After skill wealth and connections are the next biggest factor which is why half the newbros get hovered up int the big alliances newbro machines of the bat because it makes it easier for you to get that head start in all those other factors while you develop skill.
Your assumption that you are the only one of us with a growth mindset is false. A growth mindset isn’t just about wanting something good enough to eventually get it. It’s about recognising failure and short comings as opportunities to grow. You then keep working till you reach your goals.
Though even if you look in game only, there are plenty of people with green kill boards, vast wealth, power and influence that tell themselves and others that they got there because of their mindset. How often do you hear they got there because of their connections? Yet we know people do leverage that and it’s perfectly natural to do so.
That’s not even where it ends. An even playing field isn’t always guaranteed between the key board and the chair. Two different players could have very different abilities. One could have dyspraxia and dyslexia while the other is a mathlete, and fighter pilot. The former guy still might acheive more of his goals in the game because they are political goals. Equally speaking they might acheive far less because their goals are to become the best frigate pilot and that for them incurs more challenges. The fighter pilot meanwhile very quickly reached his goal of being a top frigate pilot but quite possibly failed at his goals of leading a big alliance because he is very good at mastering abilities but not so much relationships.
Saying eve is an even playing field was true on day one when everyone logged on for the first time. However since that day and every day since the playing field has been altered by the people playing it. Even on day one not everyone has the same opportunities by virtue of their own unique qualities. This is only amplified my shifts in game.
To say that eve offers the same opportunities to everyone is not a mindset thing… it’s a privilege thing.
The point being that the whole code spiel about bot aspirant behaviour is just that. Spiel.
Yes I was engaging in a little reductio ad absurdum.
Again ganking isn’t necessarily good or bad for the game. It is just a playstyle. I just don’t believe it is motivated by some desire to save the game by tackling an issue in the stagnant space of high sec by half the time blowing up people that aren’t botting. I’ve seen bots get blown up but I’ve also seen gankers ignore whole fleets of blatant ice mining bots to catch noobs on belts.
Yeah no one is saying ganking is killing the game. There is good and bad to ganking, I am saying there is more bad than good. I am less of the let’s see if I can make everyone happy, but what makes the game last the longest?
PVE should go to low and null? But it is different to how I would look at it. If paying customers want PvE in high and other paying Customer want to attempt to be a PvP grou. I would say the pretending PvP group called gankers need to go there and develop their PvP skills. Again lets have a open mind here to discuss. PvP is best in the low, wh, null regions, and they are huge. Wouldn’t there be a better argument that ganker groups should get the courage via gank nerfs to move out of highsec?
I am more of the less ganking, or harder to gank in high sec, pushing them all to the low / wh / null to do PvP and stop being called a ganker. I would like to see antiganking become a play style as well, but gankers would need to be real pirates, which I think would be a really cool story line.
Low is better for PvE if it is ratting, exploration, or other activities than high. Group activities maybe not be so much. Clearly, the reward isn’t there I would have to agree, though, or the population would be higher. Like Null, it is making all this money until you arrive, then you realize how hard it can be to make any isk. You can rat all day if you have the ship and skills.
Proganking? CCP is testing a server where it removes ganking altogether from high sec. I do know CCP has said off-the-cuff comments that were maybe erroneous, and it is clear it is because it was never said again, and have started working to push ganking down in the game, which if they were pro-ganking they would be making it easier to gank not the other way around.
For me it isn’t if I like ganking or not, I simply want longevity to the game. And I feel the community needs to start shifting a little, on how we view the game now day.
I agree, I just want to see it have more criminal consequences other than negivite security status that honestly means nothing.
This has been mentioned before, and looking at the gank destruction or the lack of thereof, it has little effect on the market, if anything it chokes the economy and causes prices to go up from choking not destruction. It is just changing the hands of a few more people and back on the market. I would love to see a different system of 100% destruction. You could apply this to PvP/PvE as well. This would drive demand up and no one could argue with that.
I don’t disagree that the game needs to evolve to last along time.
You do make some erroneous assumptions though. For instance the idea that gankers are somehow automatically bad at pvp and only gank because that’s all they can do. I literally watched a stream where a pvp player explains why they gank. Some days in pvp all that you find are blobs and people that run away to stations the second you appear in system. At the end of those frustrating days he goes to high sec and pops a hauler, barge or mission runner because he wants to see something blow up even if it’s on rails.
This is exactly what I mean by a symptom of the game we create.
How many of those people crying gankers should all go to low and null actually contribute to low and null being a pvp rich environment? How many of those that do go to null will take anything close to a fair fight and how many will blob or spend a billion in implants to get an edge?
It’s natural to seek advantage, but as a comunity over all we’ve become so afraid of a fair fight that we are harming our own experience by undocking in 50 frigate man fleets etc instead of seeking a challenge. Again this isn’t everyone but it’s enough of a problem that you don’t get a forum thread without someone taking about blobs etc.
I still say that while CCP do have some responsibility to fix it there is an element of anything they do to fix it the community may well find a way to break it.
I wouldn’t want UPvP removed from that game either, but there should be conditions for it, like a war declaration or a duel invite. And agree there is no way to get toxicity out of the game, but if minimized and a good community around the game will keep it in check.
Calm down, ganker…you could go on here; you don’t have to make comments really to be toxic. I think CCP letting the TTT be allowed in the game is Toxic. It pisses a lot of groups off and is BS on a lot of levels. But verbal toxicity in local is not welcomed either. I haven’t seen a lot of this but I am sure it is out there, so from my standpoint, agree it isn’t a huge number.
If like a toxic FC example it should be the individual. But I believe you are 100% going words only is toxic. A toxic environment can be created with a single word. I am newish to the game, I have my skills to finally mine in a T1 barge. I get in it, you swop in and kill my ship. I can do nothing about it, I couldn’t really prevent it, and you want to call this UPVP.
It just isn’t worth it, and people won’t invest in a game like that.
For the verbal part of toxic players yes EULA and booting individuals out of the game is the way to go. But for all the other toxic game styles, I think better balancing in game. It is okay to be a criminal, but they should lose something like a criminal would. A better balance of drops, harder access to anything high sec, and the list goes on. It should be really hard for a criminal in high sec, and very easy for a criminal in Null.
No but I am very interested into the mental health of the cause and effect of the game.
What I miss in this whole discussion is a bit of roleplay sportsmanship. I assume most of the “Gankers” are just people wanting to have fun in the game (and like in most competitive games, for some the most fun is naturally generated on the expense of others. Aka farming tears.). So they use every option the game gives them. Fine with that.
But so are the guys who want to play the game as “Law Enforcers”, think about a JudgeDredd playstyle in space. Get an armed-to-the-teeth spaceship, a licence to kill and a holy mission to bring the Law over any criminal you can catch. Why isn’t that okay too? One isn’t automatically a bitter nerd by enjoying that idea.
You are making the assumption that ganking is PvP, and it isn’t. It is ganking, not PvP, PvP are ships that can shoot back, and that they don’t do. I make the assumption that seal clubbing is preferred because there is tons of it. If you pushed all the gankers to low, don’t you think there would be more opportunity for these fearless pilots to go head to head in their cats and we can get back to N+1 logic.
Huge pusher for this, I think if a “Law Enforcers” as you put it takes out a criminal cap then they should get a good amount of LP for it. This would create a new game style that would slow down gankers and make them have a counter play in game, where it isn’t so predictable anymore.
It is your opinion that ganking isn’t pvp it is not a factual statement. There is an argument to say that someone undocking might not yet understand the kind of game they play but for the most part they do.
Pvp isn’t defined by ships and guns.
The market is pvp. Players pitting themselves against eachother using their resources and savvy.
Diplomacy is pvp players using their social skills and intellect to resolve problems in a way that is most favourable to them or atleast doesn’t overly favour the other side.
Industry is pvp because eve has a dynamic and competitive market.
If a miner with no interest in pvp as defined by you undocks and mines a belt and I am also a miner he is engaging in pvp versus me because he is competing with me for the same rocks, minerals, ore. Now I can choose to do a number of things; scale up my operation, undercut him on selling prices, source better mining equipment. Alternatively I can choose to hop into a catalyst and set him back by blowing up his miner before coming back to the belt to mine.
I agree that it is the carebear version of pvp according to my viewpoint; which is far from the popular viewpoint . However it’s still pvp and stating that it isn’t as fact when there are valid arguments otherwise erodes your position of credibility.
I like this idea. Run missions or something for Concorde then through the LP store you can buy a Concorde license and it gives you the right to pew pew low security players in any space you suspect to be up to no good. Pew peeing anyone above negative security and it get immediately rescinded with a massive negative to your own security standing.
The criminals could even have their own corrupt ‘marshals’ in their pocket who pew pew other gankers off their hunting grounds whilst extorting the local miners for protection.
I would advise against that. It opens the door for huge abuse tactics like we had a few years ago with insurance fraud. Any -10er could just shoot himself with an alt, collecting these LP. To make sure nobody can make insane amounts of profits by just shooting himself over and over again (and people are willing to kill themselves a thousand times if nessessary, just to prove heir point), the payouts must be incredibly low, so that the cost of the ship blown up is always a magnitude higher than the best possible payout value from the LP.
At this point the LP would be pretty much worthless. What is gained if the Law Enforcer gets 50.000 ISK for killing 10 Thrashers? Not a motivation at all.
Yeah agree with this. When I was new and heard the CODE propaganda about bot aspirants it seemed odd to me that there are multiboxing (botting?) fleet sucking ice just 2 jumps from Uedama every day whole day and they aren’t bothered.
Came into conclusion that:
they paid CODE to let them be
they are related to CODE in some way
So yes, this propaganda is just that. A propaganda. But that is again something that just one group of gankers did. The rest of us never claimed such thing mainly because we lacked resources to stop it. See these multibox fleets often mine in procurer, or they used to. Small ganker group was not able to do a ■■■■ against them, correctly fitted cheap procurer required ton of characters to kill and even when you managed to do that what happened was that they were back immediately with a replacement. Kinda like alpha strike gankers in front of Jita - you realize it is pointless as you cannot stop them no matter what, the rules are in their favor. And then later everyone switched to hull tank mining orcas which stopped even large groups of gankers from killling bots. The afk mining Orcas were a nightmare back then. We wanted to kill them, but we couldn’t. I was even killing their drones when we were asked to deal with them, but that was kinda cringe…
You are free to hire Gankers to clean up exhumers in any HighSec Belt you like. Thats why it is a sandbox, right? But barely anyone wants to put his money on the table to do it.
I agree and I wanted to. But those doing it aren’t stupid, they know how to avoid being ganked and are using proper ships and fit making it nearly impossible or at least very inefficient for gankers to kill them. And when some ganker kills them, they will soon undock with replacement ship and continue botting like nothing happens which further make gankers to believe it is pointless. You won’t get profit from ganking them, not even salt and not even fun. It is waste of time. I suspect they will be an alt of ganker because they know exactly how to use tools available to their disposal to completely drive gankers away. (See some gank-hater posters are posting years here and they still haven’t figured it out )
And of course. CCP didn’t ban them. And it isn’t because nobody reported them. I reported a lot of these “bots” back then, but nothing happened. CCP just couldn’t find a proof that they are botting. That really is hard when the entire activity is AFK based. So if CCP didn’t ban them, then they aren’t bot are they? So in the end, all you can fight against is AFK mining/PVE. And for that goal ganking is perfect. If you aren’t AFK you will escape.
Also. Shouldn’t stopping/killing bots be something that the morally high white knights of the highsec, the Jedi, anti-gankers should be doing? Remember gankers are evil psychopats so why should we care anyway? That should be your job.
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