Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

[Arrendis]

Aria… I’m not sure. I mean, I normally don’t expect much, you know? I mean, I know how things should be—and I can say that because I’m arrogant enough to assume I’m always right. But I really don’t expect the world to live up to that. Or even people, for that matter. I’ve always been one to feel like people are crap, and they’ll always be crap, and in any given situation, they’ll opt for the Path of Least Resistance and Most Crappiness.

Maybe I’m just tired, and pissed off. That’s certainly possible. Stars know I’ve got enough to be pissed off about.

But yeah, that was always Mizhara’s problem: expecting people to live up to her impossible standards meant she always felt like the world was letting her down.

@Aldrith_Shutaq

blahblahblah

How about you shut the hell up, Shittalk? When I want your opinion, I’ll ask Arrach Sarrum to issue you one.

[Aldrith_Shutaq]

@Arrendis

I’ll ask Arrach Sarrum to issue you one.

I already know it, and it is the same as mine anyway;

By order of His Royal Majesty of the House of Sarum,

Go ■■■■ yourself.

[Arrendis]

[Diana_Kim]

@Valerie_Valate

From a certain point of view, the “9th Mega” is considered to be the Guristas, as they do perform some kind of service to the State by a form of “Dissimilar Space Combat Training” as they engage trade convoys etc.

As I have said in Summit channel today, “We often talk about getting rid of humiliation of gallente influence. But sometimes I think it’s even worse humiliation that some people consider Gurista to be Caldari or call them ‘Caldari pirates’. It is just unacceptable. They shall cease to exist to stop such talks once and forever so nobody would ever stain honor of Caldari State!”

Considering them being “Caldari” Ninth’s mega is simply insulting to everyone who are Caldari.

@Valerie_Valate

Other people say Quafe is the 9th Mega as Quafe Corporation has official State recognised corporate status in the State.

And Quafe is neither large enough to be actual Mega, nor Caldari for this role. Moreover, they are registered in the Enemy nation. They aren’t in CEP either. Do they want to sit on two chairs at once? If they will try, their butt will just fall between these chairs of warring nations and they will find themselves on the floor. One has to pick sides.

Moved to off-topic since it stopped being about Triangles.

[Bravo_Atruin]

@Arrendis

right itself distributes and shares power

@Aria_Jenneth

I’m a little surprised to hear a capsuleer express such a view of the proper order of things.

This world must be constantly disappointing to you.

Arrendis’ position is a respectable one, which I would like to agree with. I would find it more accurate, however, to say that might confers a responsibility to maintain right, a responsibility neglected by many.
I recognize this is also fairly idealistic. And yes, the world is indeed constantly disappointing. Doesn’t stop me though.

[Aria_Jenneth]

@Bravo_Atruin

Arrendis’ position is a respectable one, which I would like to agree with. I would find it more accurate, however, to say that might confers a responsibility to maintain right, a responsibility neglected by many.

Your position’s way less radical though actually, sir. Most people would generally hope that those with power would use it responsibly, though exactly what that means might vary a lot. “To maintain right” is an intriguing choice of words.

Wanting to actually see power imbalances smoothed away to nothing, though? That’s a fascinating position, and a rare one. With the techology we increasingly have at our fingertips it might even become possible. But if it did, should we therefore use it?

People who listen to me for very long know that the one point of insight I credit the Sani Sabik with is understanding-- really understanding-- power. Anything that can be used, any trait, any tool, is power. You can see more or less the entire universe in terms of power, and some have insisted on doing exactly that.

So equalizing power is a fascinatingly far-reaching idea.

[Bravo_Atruin]

My interest is not necessarily equal power, only equal freedom to enjoy life without troubling others or being troubled.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Of course, sir. It was Arrendis who argued that “right” distributes and shares power.

There are a lot of questions how far we can or should take such an idea, and I’m not going to assume that, for example, Arrendis wants everybody deployed into identical clones so that nobody’s prettier than anyone else (personal appearance being not only a form of power but often an exceptionally unfair one), but the fact that we possibly could do exactly that makes the suggestion particularly, ah. Engaging?

Although …

@Bravo_Atruin

My interest is not necessarily equal power, only equal freedom to enjoy life without troubling others or being troubled.

This, too, is an intriguing notion of what “right” is about. You might be surprised the degree to which it’s specific to certain cultures, though. If you put it on the level of the community / “the people,” it’s a very Caldari or possibly Matari perspective. If you take it at an individual level I think it’s the way a Gallentean libertarian might think, right?

And the Amarr … ah. Yeah.

Differences.

[Bravo_Atruin]

Well, I’m no loyalist but I was born Matari.

[Arrendis]

@Bravo_Atruin

I would find it more accurate, however, to say that might confers a responsibility to maintain right, a responsibility neglected by many.

Morality confers a responsibility to use whatever might one possesses to maintain right. Might itself confers no such responsibility. More’s the pity.

@Aria_Jenneth

I’m not going to assume that, for example, Arrendis wants everybody deployed into identical clones so that nobody’s prettier than anyone else

Alternate phrasing: so everyone’s as pretty as the prettiest among us. That doesn’t necessarily need ‘identical’ clones, but it would mean clones that are generally of equal physical appeal. And, considering ‘appeal’ is largely a function of subjective criteria influenced in large degree by our brain chemistry and structure, that, too, could be equalized by getting rid of all of us and producing a 100% uniform humanity.

But from there, humanity would each have separate experiences based on variations in location, momentum, and condition, so that ideal would swiftly break irrevocably.

So in the end, I’d have to say that principle should only be applied within a reasonable spectrum, and not taken to the extremes that quickly end up being self-defeating, hmm?

[Aria_Jenneth]

Well-- “reasonable spectrum” itself is a little subjective, though?

Arrendis, all around us in New Eden are the remains of civilizations that at one time or another tried something … a little radical. And, mostly, it doesn’t seem to have taken them to good places. In probably every case, somebody expected otherwise at some time.

I won’t argue that “this is what you were arguing for” or some similar straw-man, but how do you actually arrange things to realize your vision of what is right without resorting to extreme methods?

[Bravo_Atruin]

Can’t legislate human nature away. Just fight its dark side off one battle at a time. One sun at a time.

[Arrendis]

@Aria_Jenneth

Well-- “reasonable spectrum” itself is a little subjective, though?

Yup! Totally. But then, so is literally all of reality. I mean, two observers sufficiently far apart, moving differently at different speeds… start running into mutually-exclusive frames of reference, you know? Reality is all in the observation of reality, much like our selves only exist as processes over time, and don’t actually correspond to any particular single moment of brain-state. Sooo… Life is subjective. Who knew?

@Aria_Jenneth

how do you actually arrange things to realize your vision of what is right without resorting to extreme methods?

You don’t. You simply strive to make things better, as best you can, in the limited ways your understanding allows. Thinking you can ‘arrange things’ or even ‘realize your vision’ is just hubris. You do what you can, within the limits of your morality, and hope for the best.

[Morgana_Tsukiyo]

Are you people talking about Nation’s solution to those pesky subjectivities? The tech is sound, the usage…

[Arrendis]

No, and the tech is not sound. Living in denial does not change the underlying subjectivity of reality.

[Lauralite_Anne_Brezia]

Last I was aware, outside of the Militia Warzone, Caldari and Gallente still shared active trade agreements… not really the actions of warring nations, is it?

And she is correct in that Quafe does maintain Corporate Status within The State, though it is correct to say they don’t quite fit in quite the same league as the big eight. They still have rights within State borders however, and even won the Caldari Business Tribunal ruling about the destruction of that trade convoy by state border units a little while back.

[Saronu_Yassavi]

@Lauralite_Anne_Brezia

trying to safeguard baseline life

@Lauralite_Anne_Brezia

will take your word that it was not the intent.

Have you considered giving some weight to outcomes rather than intent?

[Arrendis]

@Aldrith_Shutaq

Why? You never do.

Because it’s not my thread you’re shitting up.

[Arrendis]

Moving this over here so it doesn’t derail things there any further…

@Lauralite_Anne_Brezia

Efrit could just as easily declare any RJD agents working to investigate as working against the good of the republic there as they’d be investigating his actions past and present.

This is where I point out that you, a Fed native, do not do yourself or your outsider allies any favors by doubling down on unproven conspiracy theories against the legitimately-appointed system governor and Khumatar that got other outsiders in trouble in the first place.

And I’m not saying that because I think Efrit is a paragon of virtue. I’m saying that because the Accords demonstrated repeatedly that they weren’t willing to accept the decisions of the legitimate and legal government of a Republic system, and then went and issued a unilateral cease-fire against the invaders with no indications of concession or even reciprocity from the Clades.

Instead, after engaging in what amounted to armed revolt against the Republic government present, they actively threw in with the invaders the moment they could make a claim to being in charge. So doubling-down on attacks against the legally appointed Republic government doesn’t score you any points, doesn’t earn you any slack, and basically just screams ‘HI! DECIDE I’M WRONG AND SHOULD BE OPPOSED BASED ONLY ON THIS! YAY!’

And I don’t think that’s the sort of thing you want to be doing. So I’m cautioning you against doing that. See, Efrit’s an asshole, but he’s ours. And you’re not. And that kind of dynamic tends to get a really bad, really visceral response from a lot of us that has nothing to do with the merits of the case, and everything to do with, well, tribalism. So, y’know, it’s not a good move, no matter how right you might believe you are.

As for the argument that it was ‘only’ the Republic’s appointed representative in the system who made that distinction… yeah, and? He didn’t exactly need to play mother-may-I with the Sanmatar on that call, it was within his authority, and not limited to ‘only within Skarkon’.

I mean, if your argument here is ‘well, we’re boned and we’re gonna have a hell of a time clearing our name, especially while we’re simultaneously still actively attempting to make nice with the Trigs’… Well… yes. Yes, you are. And you will. Because you still are.

[Alexandre_Arthie]

What is a… Discord? Is this a form of Gal-Net UI I am not aware of?