I’m saying it’s possible to be a trickster and still worthy of trust, yes, ma’am.
It might be that we define “trust” a little differently, though. I never assume that what I’m hearing is necessarily accurate, regardless of how much I trust the source. Even the wholly honest are subject to manipulation and error (and often much easier to trick).
A trickster? No Ms Jenneth, any spy of consequence is something much worse. Is an Admiral who gives up the secrets of his nation’s defence a trickster? Is a Chancellor who seeks to paralyze with indecision and weakness the empire he swore to serve? Or did each of them betray trillions in the most profound way?
Ms Jenneth, a spy on whatever scale is a betrayer of those whose trust they earned. To think your trickster is the exception might be comforting, but unfathomably negligent.
Well, the “spy of consequence” is more likely to be the admiral’s or chancellor’s aide, though. Probably humble servants who actually serve another master outnumber top-ranking traitors by a huge ratio.
So, yes, a legion of tricksters and liars.
It’s always possible if you employ such a person that they are lying to you, also, but that’s why you try to make your trust a calculated risk and employ safeguards like multiple-source confirmation and so on where possible.
It seems to me, though, that often someone who gets into that business does so precisely because they hold dearly-held principles-- that is, typically, they get into it out of idealism and/or patriotism.
It seems like the most dangerous way for that to go is if that idealism and/or patriotism curdles into cynicism and a mercenary sensibility or otherwise gets broken or corrupted, so that a person who has served loyally for decades is all of a sudden no longer dependable. So of course, that, too, is something to watch for.
Does that seem likely in Mr. Aloga’s case, though? To me it looks more like everything he’s done just reaffirms his original commitment. His integrity’s basically intact, and it doesn’t seem like he even really had to lie.
So, it doesn’t seem like this even says much bad about his character, ma’am. It’s not even like he ever really pretended to be on our side.
Principle… some may perhaps delude themselves, but human weakness is generally the answer you’re grasping for. Spies become so for many reasons, oftentimes giving information against their better judgement or under duress. Others give hand picked information to further their agendas or thwart those of their peers. The principled stand made by a humble servant is as vanishingly small a demographic as the dramatic traitor.
As for Mr Aloga, his loyalty is not my concern. It is unlikely I would even have remarked upon it had some cretin not insisted on conflating it with imperial vows. What seems likely in Mr Aloga’s case is that he has an undisclosed loyalty, higher in precedence than those he discloses. Something that would give me pause were it in someone I expected to stand by in battle.
Wearing the colours and taking the orders of a foe, it perhaps speaks to his humility, but as a whole I don’t think it is a credit to his character.
Well … it’s maybe not surprising if the two of us have different approaches to assessing people, ma’am.
To be clear, I largely was talking about different people, between the aide and the patriot-- the asset and the agent, so to speak. Either can be described as a spy, but the asset is a spy situationally; the agent, professionally. The former is typically found in place; the latter, inserted.
Usually you’d trust an agent a fairly long way and an asset not much.
I have respect for those who pursue sincere belief, and it’s not at all clear to me that Mr. Aloga is hiding his. More than that, though, I admire those who understand their roles and pursue them doggedly, following their place in this world wherever it leads. It seems as though Mr. Aloga has been doing just such a thing.
Doing what is expected is just that. Doing something strange, for reasons that stand up even if they make sense only to one’s own specific point of view … that seems, perhaps, even admirable.
Again, we disagree, one of the oldest facets of counterespionage is to make the apparatus of your enemy your own. Being such a fundamental part of tradecraft, I don’t think anyone could or should trust their agents any more than their assets. Perhaps less, the assets are typically not such gifted liars and manipulators. Verify everything and tell them nothing they do not need to know.
To be quite honest, I’ve expressed my opinion on Aloga. Without anything new I’m done on that front.
The thing about spies, and trusting them, good people, is that if a spy has to give you more to convince you he is useful to you, than he can take by whatever of yours he gains access to, who is he actually serving?
Other than that, what makes you think neither Aloga nor me, as his superior in the capsuleer world, are the least bit interested in your opinions of him? What makes you think anyone else is, for that matter? You are not AM. You are not SoERR. You are not the Republic. You are not of the Tribes.
He is not yours to judge.
This discussion regarding my character has gone on long enough.
I will state for the record, that while I may have kept some information from coming to light for the sake of operational security, I have never deceived nor falsely presented myself to any employer, AM including, regarding my intentions.
If any one has any questions or would like any clarification they are free to ask me directly.
Haha … ah, I’m not sure those who think poorly of you would trust you to give an honest answer, Mr. Aloga.
As for myself, apparently I can’t hold a valid opinion of you even if it’s positive, so clarification’s kinda pointless.
I did you a disservice Aloga, in arguing with those who defended you poorly I sustained an incompetent defence far more effective then any attack I could, or indeed wished to make.
Every judgement of conscience, right or wrong, in matters evil or otherwise, is an obligation; in such that he who acts counter to his conscience acts always in sin. Whatever your motives, they aren’t mine to know, but from your evident atonement, your own judgement is clear.
I think this entire argument is pointless.
The main thing he did while in AM was attack the Amarr-aligned groups in Providence.
It’s not like he was a great defender of the Empire and left.
Well … there’s kind of an underlying question of whether people have to clearly state their cause and purpose for it (or, maybe, themselves?) to be considered “okay,” ma’am. That’s maybe not a meaningless question.
Then there’s this new thing of “you are not Matari enough to have an opinion about Matari stuff” which is … I kind of want that not to be what’s being said, because it’s WEIRD. Even Caldari, who usually are all “grr foreigners no meddle” definitely have opinions about stuff like, say, slavery, and express them somewhat often even if it’s kind of none of our business.
This is a public forum. People comment on other people’s internal affairs all the time.
Should I just, like, start telling literally everybody that they’re not me so they have no basis to have an opinion?
I mean, he did. From even the most brief of interactions with Cain while he was in AM it was pretty clear that his personal loyalties were with the Republic. As far as I can remember, he was entirely honest about that. Him leaving the group was probably the least surprising change of capsuleer employment of YC121.
I don’t think that’s weird. Amarr opinions are generally seen as the ones that matter on Amarr issues as well. The Matari holding Matari opinions as the important ones on Matari issues makes complete sense.
I mean, if you want. But I bet you have certain people whose opinions you do value and certain other people whose opinions you don’t value. The fact that the forums are public and everyone can express opinions on anything has nothing to do with if anyone will or should care about any individual opinions expressed.
I have to agree. For all the crap I gave him while he was in AM, during that time he made it clear he was there specifically to help AM shoot Amarr.
As for spies… spies usually do their cover a tremendous amount of good. Mittens, who as head of the GIA at the time was the spymaster responsible for the dissolution of BoB, knows a thing or two about the spy game. One of the things he likes to say about it is that a good spy will always be working to be as helpful to the group he’s spying on as he can be. He’ll be one of those guys who’s always eager to pitch in, to help out, the guy everyone likes because he’s so damned reliable and never causes trouble.
And that’s what makes them dangerous. That’s what gives them access to your secrets, to your operations, and puts them in a position to hurt you. Over the long-term, a spy generally does more for their cover than for their true employer. The things they do provide their employer, though, are potentially of critical importance at critical times.
A. It’s not new.
B. The Caldari would be perfectly justified to tell foreigners to butt the hell out, too.
C. I don’t think anyone, including the people expressing their opinion that they’d like outsiders to shut the hell up, think for even one moment that those outsiders will listen. They’re just expressing their opinion, same as the outsiders.
D. Your underlying question is meaningless. But I’m just expressing my opinion. 
E. If you were to start telling literally everybody that they’re not you so they have no basis to have an opinion, I would pay good money to whoever can provide a full a/v recording of the first time you give that response to anything Luna says. 
F. At this point, I’m probably just adding these as filler, to see just how many of them I can get in here.
G. You’re right, this is a public forum, and people do comment on other people’s internal affairs all the time. That doesn’t really make it ‘proper’ to do so, though, does it? I mean, it’s kind of like gossiping in plain sight. You used to be against ‘improper’ things.
H. Yeah, I’m pretty solidly just grasping here.
I. I got nothin’.
J. Dammit.
K. Wanted to get to at least X.
L. Then I was gonna make the next one ‘XI.’
M. Cuz I’m a jerk like that.
N. But it would have amused me!
O. Not gonna make it, though.
P. And now it’d be pointless because I’ve already given up the game.
Q. I should’ve made ‘K.’ ‘SPOILERS!’
R. Ah well.
S. Ok, gonna stop now.
T. And no, I’m not high.
U. I’m ‘traditional’.
V. Really stopping now.
W. DAMMIT, ONE SHORT!
Seriously.
I’ve been told for a decade and more to shut up because my terrorist subhuman opinions have no place in Amarrian discussions. I’ve honored requests such as to leave things like Amarrian oath-takings free of commentary on slavery, and to not speak in “uncivil” manner about pilots belonging to hostile groups.
And when I ask people to do the same, it’s “new” and “weird”?
From my point of view, it’s not weird. It’s offensive. When you first made that comment about non-Matari getting themselves involved, Captain Rhiannon, the only two people in the thread who had done anything opposite to your wishes were myself and Saronu. Saronu is not Matari and doesn’t claim to be, so let’s set that aside. You used the plural, so I have to wonder whether you were including me in that statement. I asked you point blank and never received an answer.
The problem is this: I grew up in the Federation, a half-blood. To the Gallente, I’m not Gallente enough. To the Matari, I’m not Matari enough. So which is it? Where do I belong? The dismissiveness is dry and irritating, and I’m pretty over it. If you think I’m not Matari enough to hold opinions on Matari issues, then come out and say it. If you don’t hold that opinion, then clarify as much.
That, and attack and destroy Blood Raider FOBs. I believe I was even in some Lumen Fleets for those.
We are not Sansha. I cannot stop you from forming your own opinions of me any more than you can stop me from doing the same. What I believe Elsebeth is saying, at its base, is that in the ranking of values that opinions have, non Matari opinions will generally have a lower rank than Matari ones, for Matari specific issues. Now, If I were to go outside of Matari Circles, such as if I were to apply to ARC, then those rankings are likely to shift around.
What I’m basically saying is I’m tired of being lectured by Amarr and affiliates about moral conduct, either my own or those of mine.
Terribly sorry if this offends the civilized senses of the esteemed audience.
Mr. Quatrevaux;
I cannot tell you where you belong. That is for you to determine for yourself. What I can tell you is that you need to decide who and what you feel yourself to be. Were you raised within a Clan, or adopted by one, that you learned their ways and live your life in accordance with them? Do you feel like you are a part of your Tribe? How you identify is up to you.
How you present… is a matter of others’ perceptions. I will not claim to know how others see you. To a Gallente, perhaps you present as horribly Tribal. To me, you present as Gallente. Your manner and bearing bring to mind the internationalists who have pushed for us to emulate the Federation in the past, and the paternalistic lecturing of Federal diplomats who came through our stations in my youth. I doubt very much if this is your intention, but again, I cannot speak to those. I can only tell you how the behavior and mannerisms you present to the cluster strike one particular person: me.
My question to you in response though, is: why do you care? If you know who you intend to be, and you know that you are doing your best to be that person… why should it matter to you what others think of you? Be who you think you should be, as best you can, and to hell with the opinions of anyone else.
Well … except we weren’t really discussing what Matari should think, Mr. Aloga. If anything we were discussing what we thought of you. Views of a Matari partisan by an Amarr loyalist and retainer is … well, really, if there was someone we could safely assume wasn’t going to find either of us persuasive, wouldn’t that have been you and yours?
Considering who I am, why would I think you’d care what I thought? I was talking to the person I was talking to, and maybe people who’d share her perspective-- which I definitely wouldn’t assume would include you and yours.
“What do we think about this?” seems like a fair question for anyone at all to ask of each other-- and an unreasonable one for the subject to demand the answer be, “Nothing at all!”
“Mind your own business” loses some of its oomph when nobody’s meddling to begin with, and there are limits to how bound I feel to ignore things that happen very much in public, not by necessity, but by choice.