Player Bounties

Only if he has chocate truffles in his cargo :hugs::face_with_hand_over_mouth:


Nothing weird about me knowing the history of my alliance…which you clearly don’t.

Howcome you can never accompany any of your ‘facts’ with actual data ?

Yet another semantic vaguery that you seek to pass off as ‘fact’. Your entire style in one sentence. How many is ‘plenty’ ? How inexperienced is ‘inexperienced’ ? What counts as ‘silly stuff’ ? What is ‘expensive’ ? You could not be more vague in the space of 10 words !

You have no actual idea how much experience any gank victim has. Character ‘age’ is ( as MacGybo showed ) no indication of actual age in the game. What’s more, on the ganker channel I see plenty of comments from older players surprised that they got ganked. If gankers are determined to catch a high value ( several billions of ISK ) ship…they will.

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How about shedding some light with the few unknowns then.

Who is @Altara_Zemara what ruffles your feathers?

Open up invitation to learn about your pilot here. ie [Player Bounties] If someone could place a bounty on your frozen corpse what do you feel would be the reason.

What would you do to become wanted?

They have more ISK than sense.

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Clearly you don’t know it.

Could ask the same of you. Got any evidence to show that wardec corps were killing just as many structure pre-cores?

It’s just a fact,

Sure I do, because if they can’t avoid a gank they must be inexperienced.

If that were the case, every time incursion runners move to a new focus it would be a turkey shoot since they are regularly moving tens of billions worth of drops.

Why do you devalue yourself? Sensing some bitterness.

Nanananana…to lower myself to your level.

You could, but then that would be to evade that I was originally asking for evidence for your claim…which you still have not provided.

" That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence " ( a favourite from Christopher Hitchens ).

Dismissed !

Look, I have nothing against you, or your argument. I’m happy to disagree over opinion-based argument.

However, when you start using objective, checkable factual statements to support your argument, you’d best have something to back them up, or get called on it.

The reason “why” isn’t to ‘prove’ anything.

The reason is to show that if you, @Elizabet_Forgrave, make a fact-based statement to support your argument, then you can back it up with at least some sort of data. Otherwise you’re just pulling your arguments out of your ass, à la Destiny Corrupted style, and essentially dropping yourself into the pool of posters who can be dismissed out of hand because they think BS and warped wordplay are fair substitutes for rational debate.

Well, you can certainly estimate ship values and the cost needed to gank it, but that actually has nothing to do with the statement or the thing you’re replying to.

The actual reason it’s hard to gather data on is partly, yes, hard to tell who’s new and who’s an alt. But it’s more that we can’t see criminal timers and Concord actions directly linked to a kill, so you can’t tell which ones are ganks, legit kills of flagged ships, duels, stat-padding, self-kills or whatever. It’s a mess.

Which makes it even less likely that you have any data on how much Aiko is ganking cheap new ships, and how much Safety or Black Flag go after “inexperienced players” for profit. They certainly go after expensive targets making bad judgements, but that hardly qualifies for “inexperienced”.

You stated Aiko, Safety, and Black Flag, target weak ships, cheap ships, and inexperienced players. You also tried to distort the meaning of “the average payout in the billions” by tossing off “there are more ganks on unprofitable cheap ships than on expensive ones”. (That’s a statement that requires actual, factual support btw.)

Given how averages are calculated, “lots of cheap ships” will pull the average down massively. The only way to maintain high averages is to focus on expensive ships with comparatively few losers. Your statement not only isn’t factually supported, it directly contradicts simple math (unless you can show a significant number of 10-billion+ kills to offset the lowbies).

At any rate, it looks like you’ve stuck yourself into an argument position and at this point, you’re flailing around to say anything to make it seem like you’re right. That’s ok, no worries, lots of people get stuck that way.

I’ve checked the data. I know the data to support your statements isn’t there. I know what Aiko’s kill record looks like, and just how hard you’re going to have to dig to find Venture/trash/lowbie kills, and just what a low percentage they are (unless you go waaaay back).

I asked you for your data to give you a chance to prove my assumptions wrong. You’re still more than welcome to do that. But I believe your reply here shows just where your arguments are coming from - on this topic, at least. I’m still fine with your position on many of your other posts.

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That includes statements such as “you can easily check her killboard and see plenty of ganks on ships new players use”

A totally meaningless statement. There is no such thing as ships only used by new players…or ‘new player ships’. I still mine in a Venture. I still go ratting in a Condor. I have loads of ‘new player ships’ among my battlecruisers and battleships. If I am ganked in a ‘new player ship’…does that make me a new player ?

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Except that everyone here does this. Everyone here states their opinion as if it’s a fact. There are just a few people who go “well this person disagrees with me so I’ll demand data”.

In this case you can go check the data yourself. You can see that there are large numbers of ganks that have no potential for profit. What are those, all accidental misfires? I even sent you an eve mail yesterday with a link to a guy streaming himself hunting new players.

In the CODE days gankers didn’t even pretend it was about profit, at least they had the decency of being honest back then.

You can’t 100% tell but you can infer to within a reasonable degree of accuracy. EVen if you only looked at kills followed by concord killing of the attacker though, there will still be more kills on unprofitable ships than there are on the big whales. Altara knows this which is why her response is along the lines of “but there are more small cheap in the game” rather than any attempt to.

I’ve seen data posted here in the past supporting those arguments, and every time people come up with outrageous excuses for why that data doesn’t count. This is why I can’t be bothered to go find data when someone demands it. It’s pointless. Noone is going to have their mind changed no matter what you produce.

Worse still, If I try to link a killboard or even talk to specifically about a specific killboard, my post gets flagged.

This is not true. If you get one single shot on the kill a dozen titans you’re going to be able to kill thousands of ventures before your average comes down to the hundreds of millions. Similarly, if 20+ gankers kill a few loaded up freighters, they can each then kill a lot of small, cheap ships while maintaining a high average as they all get the full kill value on their killboard.

I don’t know what you’ve checked then because other people who have posted the data on these forums have shown that ganking groups kill more of the cheaper ship than the big expensive haulers.

Just Aiko or Aiko + alts?

To be honest, you just seem mad that I didn’t like your player bounty idea so now you’re weirdly trying to pretend that gankers don’t deliberately salt mine or gank small, unprofitable ships.

You kinda are a new player, as demonstrated by you being in a group that almost exclusively bashes structures yet not knowing how core mechanics or vulnerability timers work.

You still mine in a venture? Like, in high sec? Not in a wormhole or something?

See…that’s how you evade things. You don’t specifically answer the point raised but deliberately go off on a tangent.

I made the perfectly valid point that your ‘new player ships’ is invalid because there is no such thing as ships that only new players fly. Not only might a 20 year old vet be flying a ‘new player ship’, but you don’t really even know if a ‘1 day old noob’ is really 1 day old.

Oh, and every one of my noob alts has mined in a Venture. None of them have been ganked while doing so. And what would be the big deal anyway, given that a gaussian laser fitted Venture costs just 300K and can mine the cost of its own replacement in a single trip to the asteroid belts.

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It’s not a perfectly valid point, because it’s a strawman. I never said there were ships that only new players fly.

Good for you.

Sure, though doing pretty much anything else makes more than highsec venture mining, so opportunity cost wise it’s not a great choice.

A new player ship is any ship that doesn’t have a warp-inhibiting module of any kind fitted.

Nah. There’s the posters who bother to reality-check and post their sources to support their arguments, and then there’s the pikers with their “I don’t need data, my opinion is obviously correct and so support for it ‘is out there’ - you go find it”.

I have. I even linked it for you. Something like a dozen Ventures a day are killed across all of high sec. It’s an insignificant issue. It’s also not something you’ll see happening on Safety. members in general - they farm the low-end stuff and the “miner permit” checking out to Safety. Net.

Nah, you haven’t bothered to go find any data. You’ve read a bunch of angry arguments, decided the arguments must be about really real things, and jumped on the bandwagon without anything to back it up. No worries, lots of people do that - it just means there’s no point in taking your posts seriously until you can back them up.

Gankers aren’t shooting Titans. And the rest of the attempted rationalization is why you look at totals across large groups, not individuals. But not to worry, you’ve already demonstrated you don’t really understand how these things work.

Your liking or disliking anything is irrelevant. You, and most other frequent posters, aren’t the audience I write for - you’re just the foil for presenting good/bad arguments.

Playing the “umad, bro?” card is just another attempt to deflect attention away from your lack of anything substantive to support your position.

Once your argument about bounties devolves to “It will only work if it’s profitable enough, but if you make it profitable enough, it must necessarily be open to abuse”, you’ve removed yourself from rational debate and simply stated “I’m against this and I refuse to believe any differently”.

That’s fine, but you could save a lot of time by just stating that up front, rather than pretending to be rational about it and then flailing about when you get called on your statements.

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Lol…I can’t believe you still don’t get the point. No…there aren’t any ships that only new players fly. That is the whole point ! A ‘new player ship’ ( your words ) can be flown by anyone…which makes arguing that ‘new player ships’ get blown up regularly an utterly meaningless statement…especially as there is no guarantee that any apparent ‘new player’ is even new.

It’s just another example of you coming out with meaningless jabberwocky semantics.

You haven’t linked data, you made a post where you said that you drew the line at pulling the actual data and gave some summarised figures.

I don’t even know why you are trying to pretend that gankers don’t go after unprofitable ganks. How does this benefit you in any way?

You’ve given me no reason to. You’ve declared me wrong and condescended from the start. Why would I bother putting together data that you’d ignore if it didn’t meet your expectations anyway?

OK, then don’t take them seriously. Similarly, I have no reason to take yours seriously since you seem to be 100% emotion. I disagreed with you on bounties and you’re now going ham trying to disagree with anything else I say.

It was an example, and “the rest” was me explaining how averages and zkb work. If you team up to kill a bunch of high-value freighters you can each go off and solo multiple unprofitable ships while maintaining high averages.

I stand by it, no matter how salty and aggressive you get. To justify the time it takes to hunt a player down requires a high payout, but a high payout will always be able to be exploited. It’s not that hard to understand.

I get the point you’re trying to make but since I never said “only new players” your point is still just you using strawmen. I’m not surprised that you continue to be dishonest.

But the fact that you didn’t say only new players is the whole freaking point ! Lol…you still don’t get it. NO…‘new player ships’ are NOT only flown by new players. Precisely ! Comprendes ?

So when you refer to ‘ganks on ships new players use’…so freakin what ? By your own admission now…‘new player ships’ are flown by anyone and not just new players. So by your very own hole that you have dug for yourself, a gank on a ‘new player ship’ is NOT necessarily a gank on a new player.

I love it when you’ve weaved yourself such a tangled web that you trip yourself up with your own statements and denials.

Are you done with the gas lighting yet? You’re now trying to tell me what point you think I was trying to make while attacking me for not accepting your counterpoint to the point I never made.

Just go away. I’m not interested in your continuing harassment.

Typical Elizabet…you got caught in your own web of twisted semantic gaslighting, can’t find a way out of how your own statements contradict each other, and so all of a sudden it is ‘harrassment’.

Stop lying and leave me alone.