Policy Update - Real Life Threats & Harassment

[Eve_Griefer]

@Mortlake

I realise you won’t have much of a business left at the end of it, but it’s the right thing to do.

I think you may be surprised at who would still be left, and how many.

[Mingja]

@zluq_zabaa

This is not about what you can or cannot say, it is about who you are.

If you would have cared to read my postings, then you would have noted that it absolutely is about what you can or can not say. You throw around stuff like “toxic person” in a world were definitions are essentially meaningless because a vast majority of the vocal crowd changes definitions left and right based on feelings to the point that what you say today (cough, human garbage, cough) could be held against you tomorrow.

That is the entire point. You can’t hold someone responsible for saying something that later becomes problematic just because you’ve changed the definition to include said comment afterwards. That is the equivalent of saying “I don’t like what you’ve said, so I’ll make it reprehensible and hold you accountable for it”.

See, I’ve grown up in a different time where terms had meanings and weren’t fluid and where facts where the ultimate end goal of mankinds quest for knowledge. I don’t subscribe to the idea that something else triumphs over facts, I just don’t and if you want to convince me otherwise, you gonna have a hard time.

That doesn’t mean that I want to hurt your feelings and if you tell me to not discuss, let’s say, feminism with you, because that just might do exactly that, then I just won’t. Just don’t hold me accountable for things that offend you without giving me a proper warning and we’ll be fine. Mutual respect goes both ways.

^ the entire point that I am arguing for.

Also, problems don’t go away if you just restrict them hard enough. Learn from history please. Literally BANNING N_zi’s in Germany for 50++ years has done absolutely nothing in that regards and you know why? Because you can’t convince people by calling them names and because restricted speech does nothing to thoughts.

You would have to sort things out together in order to find a solution and if you can’t do that without resorting to insults, then you better grow up first.

TLDR is: It’s not about pushing limits, it’s about trying to formulate a framework everyone can agree on. That would be true progress.

[Furoth]

@zluq_zabaa

from harassment to threats, from threats to action. If the general rules are enforced strictly as they should, you get rid of the normalization effect of escalating hate speech, threats and actual violence.

You do know that violence is already illegal don’t you? If that does not stop violence why would a rule from some game makers stop them? This line of reasoning makes no sense unless you’re a member of a movement with ideas to protect and other ideas you want criminalized. Nobody else would care what you have to say and simply go about playing the game.

@zluq_zabaa

by controlling what you say

Sums your position up perfectly.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Syfa

That is one hell of a motte and bailey argument. Yes, those things are horrible and impossible to defend. They’re also criminal and will see you in jail in any reasonable country, which negates the need for a game company to “police” them. You’re using that much easier to defend position (the bailey) as a shelter from your actual position; which is preventing people from saying “mean” things that you don’t like on the internet (the motte).

The point is that these types of harassment behaviors tend to escalate. Removing players from the community who demonstrate that they don’t know where the line is will help to ensure that these extreme situations are prevented. At the very least, the company can claim that they did everything they could to resolve the situation.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Jeremiah_Saken

I love the statement: every case will be sorted separately. Without public? Trial? Who will decide? GM? Guard? Brisc?
What idiot and why I feel he is from a certian country in Asia between Japan and China did it?

The CS team, like they already do right now. The GMs make these decisions every day.

[Nolak_Ataru]

@Brisc_Rubal

The point is that these types of harassment behaviors tend to escalate. Removing players from the community who demonstrate that they don’t know where the line is will help to ensure that these extreme situations are prevented. At the very least, the company can claim that they did everything they could to resolve the situation.

You don’t get rid of hate by curb-stomping it. You get rid of hate by opening a dialogue and talking. Need I remind you of the black guy who dismantled an entire branch of the KKK by talking to them?

[Furoth]

I think the problem we all have is that with the blanket terms CCP introduced they blurred the line between real life and game rather than reinforce it. It seems a step backwards.

[CCP_Guard]

Ahh ok, I think we’re moving closer to an understanding then

@Mingja

My question was more or less aimed at your companies philosophy, aka whether or not CCP subscribes to “everything can be offensive and thus problematic”

No, not really. Without going into details or drawing precise lines, we look at context, intent and previous history before take action against a person. If we don’t agree there’s cause for action we don’t take any. And to iterate we have a warning system we use way more than the ban button. We try to be aware of major fault lines between cultures that meet in our game as best we can, but that’s never not gonna be complicated.

We have all kinds of internal guidelines, we also have a lot of very experienced staff and low turnover, and our overall goal is to guide rather than to punish…which I think is pretty important in all of this.

There’s also the fact that if you get a warning and don’t understand why, our Gamemasters are always available to discuss that with you up to a point.

Finally regarding the fact about EVE being a harsh game where people can be mean to each other historically, that’s true in a sense…but we’ve always had strict rules against the kinds of behavior listed in this blog as our EULA and ToS show. We’ve been dishing out warnings to nasty verbal assaults since I started working as a GM back in 2003. There’s plenty of game mechanics that allow you to be mean to someone without breaking the rules

[Predvodnica_LSG]

Till now that was more guidelines than rules, and now you are forced to meet the expectations and force it by the rules. Do not water it down no more HTFU from now on everybody must be nice and forget what you have done in the past, and that goes for both side CCP customers and CCP employes

[Ima_Wreckyou]

@Predvodnica_LSG

Do not water it down no more HTFU from now on everybody must be nice

It looks like you did not understand what this is about. There is nothing that changes in regard to the in-game rules. It still very much HTFU if you lose a game of EVE.

[Ho_Ma_Fan]

interesting that now CCP is trying to extricate themselves from gameplay that they set up that allows and ENCOURAGES people to “spoil other people’s day”… and then for additional luls, troll the victims further…

Yep, EVE is the game that allowed people to be pricks but now it seems they want to get away from that premis

[zluq_zabaa]

@Mingja

If you would have cared to read my postings, then you would have noted that it absolutely is about what you can or can not say. You throw around stuff like “toxic person” in a world were definitions are essentially meaningless because a vast majority of the vocal crowd changes definitions left and right based on feelings to the point that what you say today (cough, human garbage, cough) could be held against you tomorrow.

First of all, I find your interpretation of the policy update false, possibly with malicious intent. You try to bait CCP into showing themselves as a word-police, which they are not. This bears the question why you would do that, unless you simply don’t like the rules, because you think it is your right to threaten and spread toxic stuff around.

@Mingja

That is the entire point. You can’t hold someone responsible for saying something that later becomes problematic just because you’ve changed the definition to include said comment afterwards. That is the equivalent of saying “I don’t like what you’ve said, so I’ll make it reprehensible and hold you accountable for it”.

You’re making a lot of cloudy examples as if this would be a huge existing problem. Either you are a trying to scope out the edges of just how much racism you may spread before you get the banhammer or you spend too much time with people who are judgemental about everything you say. Either way, it’s not what CCP intents and you should know it.

@Mingja

See, I’ve grown up in a different time where terms had meanings and weren’t fluid and where facts where the ultimate end goal of mankinds quest for knowledge. I don’t subscribe to the idea that something else triumphs over facts, I just don’t and if you want to convince me otherwise, you gonna have a hard time.

I agree on facts over subjective feeling. However, facts don’t become facts unless proven by the most honest criticism there is. Those people who say “I feel that” sometimes try to talk back against utter, un-scientific nonsense ideology in a way that is not too confrontative. Personally, I’m very confrontative when it comes to bullsh*t ideological lies who claim to be facts.

@Mingja

That doesn’t mean that I want to hurt your feelings and if you tell me to not discuss, let’s say, feminism with you, because that just might do exactly that, then I just won’t. Just don’t hold me accountable for things that offend you without giving me a proper warning and we’ll be fine. Mutual respect goes both ways.

I think you misunderstand the people who say “I feel”. You don’t hurt their feelings. They know if you were to spread mysogynistic crap, the right answer would be to either let you stay alone and angry, or, if you start harassing to find an effective, appriopriate and lawful reply whatever it means. But they don’t want to be so confrontative, so they choose to deal with you as if you are not the enemy. An enemy can’t offend you or hurt your feelings. For some reason they don’t see you as the enemy, probably because they give you a chance to not be a narrow-minded person anymore. Personally I believe that every adult choses for themselves what kind of person they are and the responsibility that comes with that includes, that I don’t have to treat the enemies of decent human behaviour as if they just need a chance. That’s why they feel offended or hurt, while I’d just know that you are the enemy of human kind and deserve to be treated just as such. It’s your own choice.

@Mingja

Also, problems don’t go away if you just restrict them hard enough. Learn from history please. Literally BANNING N_zi’s in Germany for 50++ years has done absolutely nothing in that regards and you know why? Because you can’t convince people by calling them names and because restricted speech does nothing to thoughts.

So what? CCP is not the world police. They can decide wether or not their game becomes a target for people just like yourself who try to find ever new edges of just how much hatred can be spread. Nazis were never banned in Germany by the way. They continued in high positions throughout all those years, because the western Allies cared more about the fight against Soviet Union/communism than about stomping out the Nazis - just like in Korea, Chlle, Cambodia and everywhere else.

Nazism is the ideology for people who are too cowardly to face the real challenges of mankind and oppose the real problems. Instead they make up heroic fairytales, while sucking up to the rich and kicking down on the poor and beaten down. Sure it does not go away, if the world we live in does not allow for stronger people. From time to time they’ll come back and where they get into power they’ll fail, because they have no solutions to anything, they are not even a problem, they’re just the offer to the lowly cowards to be destructive, while everything goes to sh*t.

@Mingja

You would have to sort things out together in order to find a solution and if you can’t do that without resorting to insults, then you better grow up first.

I’m not sure if this is still referring to WW2 or not. Well “sort things out together” after 50 Million dead… maybe that was a mistake.

@Mingja

TLDR is: It’s not about pushing limits, it’s about trying to formulate a framework everyone can agree on. That would be true progress.

CCP sets the framework and most people can agree that it allows for controversial discussion just as much as happy time with friends. Toxic threats, anti-human ideologies are simply not part of the framework. You don’t have to like it, but it is how it is.

@Furoth

You do know that violence is already illegal don’t you? If that does not stop violence why would a rule from some game makers stop them?

I’ve seen my fair share of violence in real life and I can tell you that the vast majority of it starts with words and escalating over time to a readyness to beat each other up or worse. Only two times I got into fights without any exchange of words before. In most cases the willingness of the attacker to pick a fight depended on wether or not you allow them to “spool themselves up”. If you allow them to call you this or that, if you allow them to ramble on, if you allow them to threaten you, it is too late.

I can tell you that most people I know enjoy a perfectly good life without treating others as if it is everybodies personal freedom to give other people a shitty time. It’s not. The people who choose to do this, need to be confronted, lest our societies fall apart.

The majority of normal people does not owe it to the minority of haters to give them every space to spread their hatred. Freedom of expression: yes. But this never meant that anyone owes you to give you a stage or listen to you. This is what CCP does: they don’t force you to become less of an edgelord (if you were one), but they don’t invite you to their home for it.

[CCP_Guard]

I also I see a common misunderstanding about the intent of the lyrics…they were originally pointed at the competition, as in other gaming companies. It was very much a “studio” song whereas later ones have been more community focused. But players adopted the lyrics and that’s awesome! It also doesn’t violate our teen rating so I don’t have to turn the banhammer on myself ;D

[Predvodnica_LSG]

Wrong, banhammer for you is in the hands of your new owner, not yours!

[Ima_Wreckyou]

@CCP_Guard

I also I see a common misunderstanding about the intent of the lyrics…they were originally pointed at the competition

Ha! What competition? EVE is pretty unique

[zluq_zabaa]

@Ho_Ma_Fan

interesting that now CCP is trying to extricate themselves from gameplay that they set up that allows and ENCOURAGES people to “spoil other people’s day”… and then for additional luls, troll the victims further…

Yep, EVE is the game that allowed people to be pricks but now it seems they want to get away from that premis

Nah, EVE is still going to be hardcore.

It’s just the ultimate exercise in staying focused on the game itself and trying to turn your anger over a loss into in-game action, not try to meta-game by attacking the person behind the character with real violence or threats thereof.

It is very much HTFU if they expect you to be better next time, within the common mechanics of the game. If you lose a match of chess, sure you won’t lose again if you beat your opponent up instead or try to spoil the mood by ad hominem attacks. But this doesn’t make you a good chess player and it doesn’t deliver a great challenge for all sides. It’s just the treat of the bad loser who wants to break the rules because he can’t find a way to win within them.

EVE is hard and these rules make sure that it stays hard.

[anas_moraished]

@CCP_Falcon @CCP_Guard @Brisc_Rubal

I understand the policy and i agree about it.

There is some quistion:

1- What do you mean by online stalking ?
I do not see an issue with player hunt other player inside the game because revenge or hate
or what ever as long it is game hunt even if i hired merc to do so.
So what is it mean online Stalking.

2-How do CCP Deal with false Report and fake evidince ?
3-Log as in my precpictive is not prove for something because some one can fake that so do CCP
have them own Log as trusted evidince or prove ?
4-how do CCP deal with Lies as tactic to ruin other player gameplay like this man said this when he did not
or this man did … ETC ??

[Ima_Wreckyou]

@Ho_Ma_Fan

interesting that now CCP is trying to extricate themselves from gameplay that they set up that allows and ENCOURAGES people to “spoil other people’s day”… and then for additional luls, troll the victims further…

How do they “troll the victims”?` Losing is part of almost every game there is where you have direct competition between players. And IF you lose which happens to all of us the reaction should be looking into what you did wrong and why you lost so you can grow and get better at the game.

If you somehow think that verbal abuse or harassing another player or whatever is a viable response to losing then all power to CCP to remove you from the game.

[Ho_Ma_Fan]

I’m talking about PvP winners trolling losers to get more tears to laugh about…

An example would be the guys who posts YouTube videos of stalking miners in WH space in their Stealth Bombers… and then sending the victims “thank you messages” for receiving their “Torpedo deliveries”…

seems kind of pricky to me, anyway

[Annah_Tsero]

cough Black Desert Online(?)
Hahahahhahah