Putting the demand that all players engage in PvP into context

My immediate circle of gaming friends was, for the most part, perfectly normal and average. We weren’t prone to outbursts, tantrums, or arguments, the majority of our conversations being calm even when there was action on the screen. Everyone got along, and we were all pretty happy with being an average group of gamers (unnamed members of the group will receive the generic monikers of M1-3). Let me tell you this for context, before I came to EVE I wasn’t used to people being toxic or childish over basic game play style choices. I also suffer from a chronic case of morbid curiosity. I also do not, have never, and don’t see the point in giving a ■■■■ about what others think, I mind my business, they can mind theirs.

This happened when a member of our gamer group (henceforth referred to as EG, entitled ganker) told us about EVE, she thought it was simply the best, and was the type who was very confident in her assertions. Her BF was also a member (hereafter referred to as PB, poor bastard), and encouraged us to give it a try to at least show her that we tried her suggested game. Some of you might think of him as a bit of an enabler, but honestly he became as much a victim of EVE’s toxic pvp mentality as any of us, can’t have been good for their relationship. It started when we logged in to create our first characters.

EG: “Ok everyone, when it comes time to choose your race, pick Caldari, so we can start near the areas where we hunt people.”
M1: “I kinda want to be Amarr.”
M2: “Me too.”
Me: “Gallente looks good to me.”
EG: “Don’t be silly guys, if you don’t start near me i’ll have to wait longer before you get here so we can kill people.”
Me: “I don’t really like diving into PvP on day 1 of a new game, I prefer to learn first.”
EG: “That’s stupid, everyone pick Caldari like I said.”
PB: “I think I want to be Amarr too though…”
M3: “Me too!”

At this point I could tell EG was already starting to get agitated, but she dropped the topic after we created our characters and started the tutorial. Turns out EG had been playing EVE for a while, and had picked up some bad habits, her EVE friends had told her that everything besides PvP was pointless and stupid, and she embraced this mentality. So, i’m not here for an ethics debate, but I don’t like mindless pvp, especially non consensual PvP in open world games. She demanded we dump our 1m skillpoints from the new player link into specific skills so we could form a suicide gank fleet together. I refused, I knew this would set her off but again, i’m not the type to just throw all my weight into PvP day 1, especially not mindless PvP where we wander around looking for players who are afk or otherwise helpless. Several members of our circle of gamer friends feel the same way, it’s one of the reasons we get along so well, did I mention most of them also share my “no shits given” way of thinking? Love those guys. They were perfectly capable of making their own in game choices, and they did. M1 decided to try mining, M2 started on exploration, those both seemed fun, but I loved how huge the EVE marketplace was, and said I was going to try making Trade into a career.

Once we told everyone what we were doing, it emboldened PB and he stepped out of line saying he wanted to be a space trucker (hauler). EG was NOT. HAVING. IT.

EG: “You are supposed to be doing PvP with me, we are going ganking!”
PB: “It doesn’t seem like anyone wants to do that, can’t we do some of these missions instead?”
EG: “Ganking is the best, the only thing that matters in EVE is PvP.”
PB: “I still want to try something else.”
EG: “You won’t like it.”
PB: “I’m sure I will.”
EG: “You don’t know what you’re talking about!”
PB: “I know what kind of play styles I like.”
EG: “Well you can’t do that.”
PB: “Yes, I can.”
EG: “I said no!”
PB: “Well i’m doing it!”
EG: “You always do PvP with me!”
PB: “Because it’s your favorite and you make me… I don’t even like PvP!”
EG: “Yes you do, it’s your favorite.”
PB: “I want to be a space trucker!”
EG: “Damnit PB just do as I say!”
PB: “No, space trucker!”
M3: “Holy crap they have wormholes in this game… i’m gonna do exploration too!”
EG: “You can’t do that, exploration sucks.”
M3: “Yes, I can.”
EG: “I’m the one who knows this game and that means I know best!”

The whole time this is going on I am listening to them go off on each other like watching the pre-match interview in wrestling. Back and forth, with the pitch of her voice getting more and more shrill with each sentence. I was fairly certain that when she logged out a cloud of bats would have been summoned. I’m just listening at this point and eating a sandwich.

We all go about our business in the game with EG’s complaining now down to muttered grumbles, until we all seem to be enjoying our chosen career paths too much for her tastes. We’d finish a mission, look through our loot, discuss, then move to the next, each time with EG chiming in that we needed to come fleet up with her for a gank roam.

EG: “You guys don’t need to do any more missions!”
PB: “But I want to do more…”
EG: “But I said no.”
PB: “I’m an adult, I can play the game how I choose to play it.”
EG: “No, you can’t.”
PB: “Just tell me why I can’t keep doing distribution missions?”
EG: “Because I said so, you aren’t listening to me.”
PB: “I’m enjoying these missions and I want to do more.”
EG: “You wouldn’t be enjoying them if you came to gank like I said!”
PB: “Yes, I would, I always enjoy questing more than you do, and these are fetch quests IN SPACE. Tonight i’m doing more quests.”
Me: “Yaknow, trading and hauling really overlap a lot, I think i’ll come help you PB.”
EG: “No, you guys have done enough PvE.”
Me: “Nah, I really think I want to do more with PB.”
EG: “Well you are WRONG!”
Me: “You seem upset.”
EG: “That’s because you people aren’t listening to me!”
Me: “Yes, we are, we just don’t care. We want to keep playing this huge game in the way we find most enjoyable.”
M1: trying not to laugh as he chimes in “You’re not helping, Me.”
Me: “I think you want to come haul with us too, heh.”

At this point nobody is still playing and everybody is stifling laughter as they listen to this absurd exchange on the team speak channel. Things were getting near our normal wrap up time, but none of us felt particularly tired, rather, highly entertained and wanting to stay up a bit.

Me: “Hey M3 is exploration fun? Is it cool inside the worm holes?”
PB: “Oh yeah M3 is doing wormholes… maybe we should group up and do one together?”
M3: “Sounds sweet guys, i’m in system X.”
M1: “I kinda want to get in on this too.”
M2: “Me three, come on EG, didn’t you want to fleet up, let’s do a wormhole together!”
EG: “NO! We are not doing a wormhole, PB and I are going to bed so EVE is done for the night.”
M1: “Uh… no, it isn’t?”
EG: “Well i’m leaving, and you guys are guests of mine, so you should leave too.”
M1: “You can leave if you want, but the rest of us are going to keep playing.”
EG: “You have to leave when I say so, I play this game regularly, you’re just guests.”
M1: “Yes, we accepted a game invite, that doesn’t make us your slaves.”
EG: “It’s MY GAME! I invited you guys to play so you owe me!”
M1: “I don’t care, people can play how they want, they don’t have to come PvP with you, honestly most of the time we end up carrying you anyway, so constantly badgering us to PvP is getting old.”
EG: “I don’t get carried, it’s you guys stealing my kills!”
M1: “You run on top of your own grenade throws and kill yourself…”

And that, ladies and gentlemen, was how it continued on until PB reluctantly logged off of team speak to face his tongue lashing from EG. And that is a perfect example of the toxic “only PvP matters” mentality that is way too common in EVE. Wow, this story was so offensive to gankers that they used all their alts to report it.


reserved for popcorn gif of appropriate magnitude

Alternatively, IB4L, now Ive read it properly


Is this a good example of the OP not giving a ****?

He seems to have put a lot of time into this.


I guess his school is closed for Covid

I thought Fortnight was mostly PvP . . .

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Naive and refreshing. The only thing you’ve done wrong so far is to find your way into the forums. My advice: never open them again.


I don’t accept your premis, and pretty much looks like something a kid would write.

Eve is a PvP focused game but that does not mean you have to PvP. I enjoy all sorts of activities in Eve without using a gun but at the same time accept that someone else could spoil my day.

Fact is that mining/huffing/hauling/exploring without the threat of PvP would be pointless, just looking at pretty pixels.

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Translation: “YOU’RE NOT LISTENING!”

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand why ganking is all that EVE needs. The game play is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the numbers will go over a typical player’s head. There’s also the ganker’s nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into their characterization - their general philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The gankers understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of this game, to realize that it’s not just funny being toxic- it says something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike ganking truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn’t appreciate, for instance, the humor in ganker’s existential catchphrase “Calm down, miner,” which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev’s Russian epic Fathers and Sons I’m smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as CCP’s genius unfolds itself on their computer screens. What fools… how I pity them. :joy: And yes by the way, I DO have a ganker tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It’s for the ladies’ eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they’re within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

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Dear OP, your thread is irresistible. I simply must reply.

What you described is a typical example of enthusiasm and unbridled eagerness of “EG” for her friends to enjoy her game and the things she loves doing in that game. It has nothing to do with alleged toxic pvp environment, and everything to do with expectations, leadership and group dynamics. The way it is organized is, of course, questionable if not hillariously wrong. “PB”, “M1-2-3” and your good self followed her, but also dropped the link with her eagerness to function and have fun as the normal tight group (as per your context) and did not follow through. Plus, you were led in, agreed to be led in, but refused to be led further once in.

A perfect example of The Abilene Paradox (original video here). Thank you so much for reminding me of my own mistakes spanning several decades of frustration and relations gone south. I suggest you don’t undock from a station near me for a while, lmao.

Actually it’s a badly edited Karen story. Original context was a dinner at an italian restaurant which is why the pacing / narrative is a bit off. Glad you enjoyed :slight_smile:

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Oh wow. It is just a fictional adaptation!

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Yup, enjoyed it alright. And had flashbacks. Still, better not undock :stuck_out_tongue:

Of course the real PvP occurs on the general forum.

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Actually it seems like a contrived, exaggerated example to me. It’s “so common” that in over a decade of EVE play I’ve never encountered a similar tale.

Yes, there are a half-dozen mindless sheep on the forums bleating “only PVP ma-a-aatters”. Even those people wouldn’t be as obuse as your ‘EG’. They mostly do it here to provoke arguments because EVE is so poorly designed for PvP that they can’t get sufficient confrontation in the game, so they look for it here. (Well that, plus some of them are just bad at PvP so they like to pretend here on forums.)

Anyways, if your group had any balls you’d have straightened EG out on day 1. Seems to me EG had a goal in mind (she wanted to try a suicide gank squad), tried to get her ‘perfectly normal’ group of gamer buddies to support her in it, and you guys only played along half-heartedly, then bailed on her.

You aren’t limited to one character. You can mission, explore and develop at any time, solo. You all had the option of helping her form her gank squad up front, and rolling your Amarr/Gallente/mission running/game-learning characters on your own.

I honestly don’t think much of the PvP setup in EVE, and have a low opinion of highsec gankers in general. However, it’s a valid playstyle, and your friend had the right idea: grab some buddies, form a gank squad, go smash some ships up. It’s far more engaging and interesting an option for new players than it is for lazy vets too frightened to venture out of highsec for their PvP.

EG was pushing the boundaries - you guys were stuck in the “lets pick valid MMO careers and start levelling up” rut you probably play in all your other games. Not wonder she got so frustrated with you all.

It’s 2020 man, and the end of the world as you know it. Free your mind, and the rest will follow!

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So glad you took the time to type all that before reading the context XD

You’re so obsessed with forcing PvP down people’s throats that you’re taking a Karen’s side, lmao

I don’t know, I’ve come across those types before. it’s not just PvP though. Part of why I tend to stay solo, saves all the aggravation.

Whilst eve is a pvp game at its core, that doesn’t really have anything to do with your experience. Being a pvp game at it’s core doesn’t mean everyone must pursue killing other players.

Your friend is not typical of eve players. Not even typical of players like me that teach the nay sayers how eve is indeed a pvp game.

I think @Kezrai_Charzai is right. This person wanted to form a gank squad and you guys were the extra firepower she needed to hunt bigger targets.


Um, it was a fabrication based on a popular r/entitledparents story, but thanks for playing! XD


You’re just such a good writer.

Congratulations on trolling me, and a few others. Now for the consequences - actions in EvE always do, you know - let’s see…

“Karen”, who you surprisingly claim as being a figment of your literary imagination, in principle did nothing wrong by bringing the rest of the group into a new game. The group dynamic itself was wrong, by not speaking up about expectations and by not making clear agreements up front. If that is taking side with Karen, I can live with that - without shoving PvP down everyone’s throat btw.

The relevance for me was contained in your first two paragraphs and the first exchange. After that it is just normal follow through of the same bad path the group was already on - but you use it to drive home your point: that a focus on PvP is bad and allegedly poisons the group, using a hammer on a thumb tack. You siding against Karen, however, is an example of you not understanding what motivates her to play the game itself and for bringing the group into it. You seem to condemn her for being focused on pvp.

You do have a point, namely that calling anything else but one’s favourite play style “wrong” is just that, simply wrong. Pvp-only cannot keep the game alive. On the other hand, why that ardent focus ? What is really on your mind ? You request a mentality change by creating a fake example ? What if someone else writes up the same story again but with focus on mining ? Say that it’s right ?

Live and let live … that should have been the message all along.

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