Which is not what he was saying is ‘not even close’. He was saying paying them is ‘not even close’ to joining them.
Before 2016 there weren’t so many taxes and fees for using NPC stations.
For anyone saying that industrialists should just band together or use NPC stations:
- System cost index increases with every character running jobs in said system. If you stuff 200 industrialists into a single system/structure for the extra protection, you might as well not do any industry at all because the cost index will eat all of your profits and then some
- NPC taxes pretty much kill off any profitability from industry out right. If you want make profit via manufacturing/science you HAVE to use a citadel. You simply cannot use NPC station or will end up in negative profit.
Here are some screenshots of several what I fairly certainly claim are frequently used items (ME level of blueprints is set to max where possible) using Jita prices pulled several minutes ago:
https://i.imgur.com/VrGE0Ea.png
https://i.imgur.com/4T3iPZX.png
This is set for a system with Index cost set to 3% btw, so yes, by doing any manufacturing for any of these items you are effectively losing ISK.
Again, NPC stations, as they are now with all those fees and taxes are unviable for industry, you may as well remove manufacturing from the game…
2 Likes
except for a small corp it’s literally the same thing
You know that thing called “renters”.
Or that thing called “corporation tax”.
You can call that racket if you prefer.
Having re-read what @Brisc_Rubal said
Am I correct in assuming that with an existing structure the only negative effects of no Quantum core will be loss of tethering, refitting and repair - I can live with that.
The question is … Can a core be removed from a newly anchored structure if you wish to for-go these services?
As long as the current group that drives the focus of the game is stuck on the ‘Explode’ part and not so much on the rest of the game that goes with it, you’ll have job security.
Do you have to pay to dock in it? Fit your ship? Are there things you can do that are free in it? Yes.
He said having to pay them was the same as joining them.
No, it is literally not the same thing. Paying to use structures in highsec is not even the same as renting. If you’re renting from Horde, Horde won’t shoot you when they run into you outside of highsec. If you’re just paying to use services in highsec, Horde will still shoot you whenever they find you outside of highsec.
Joining a group, or renting from a group—which are also not the same thing—is tracked, by a number of means, including, you know being a member of the group in the case of joining, and standings, in the case of renting. Nobody is setting standings based on every single person who pays service fees in the TTT. They’re not tracking it. They don’t care if you’re paying them service fees. They’ll still happily kill you.
In some ways, it’s a worse deal than even renting. On the other hand, paying service fees in the TTT doesn’t instantly make you a target for everyone not affiliated with a single null group.
I think what a lot of people are upset about is that this pending change takes away their ability to remain independent in the way that they have enjoyed since the introduction of citadels.
Having that independence threatened or interfered with after enjoying it for so long comes as an affront to those who made use of it.
From what I have gathered reading this thread idea of what amounts to placing a bounty on your citadels in order to continue a playstyle that has been promoted for the last 5 years is too much of a risk for high sec entities to take.
Also there is not much counter play that does not see you either losing a battle of attrition from constant attacks or bankruptcy from hiring mercs multiple times.
If we take a look at the proposed system in its current revision the player group that stands to be immediately effected the most are high sec industrialists due to the fact that their player base is not equipped skillwise or strategicly to deal with veteran war corps.
3 Likes
I literally wrote that docking and personal hangar services were free.
And people who want to use INDUSTRY don’t care about them.
Yes it is.
HAVING TO pay people is the same as HAVING TO join them.
That’s just a racket. That’s just what a huge part of NS is, and literally why people don’t want to play in NS.
So now CCP is forcing that part of the racket on HS players. That’s literally the same thing as. I don’t care what YOUR definition of “joining” is.
1 Like
The idea that we are paying for a bounty on our own structures does not sit well
5 Likes
Yup. And that’s a totally reasonable position for them to take. Frankly, this is a particularly boneheaded move, and I can’t for the life of me figure how CCP thought this was going to accomplish… anything.
Pretty much.
No. It is not the same. If you join them, you get benefits like group membership, access to markets in nullsec, financial support for ships lost in combat, better moneymaking opportunities in null.
You get none of those from just paying service fees. Which means there are differences. Which means they are not the same.
Is it a racket? Sure, it’s totally a racket. Then again, me scamming you out of 1b ISK to join Goonswarm is a racket. So is a ponzi scheme that bilks billions of dollars out of people. That doesn’t mean me scamming 1 person out of 1b ISK is the same as a ponzi scheme that nets billions of real world dollars. Just because two things have some similarities, and can be grouped into the same extremely broad category, that doesn’t make them ‘the same’.
A grain of sand is ‘matter’. A black hole is also ‘matter’. They are not the same.
Agree those who have less resources not matter how defiant will succumb to the attrition of continued pressure in the end.
I see 3 outcomes
-
People / Corps go to null
-
More Triade systems pop up to provide service to people in or near The Forge area.
-
Groups band together and try to fight the system and get ground down.
HELLO ?
YOU ARE FORCED TO DO SOMETHING THAT IS WORSE THAN JOINING THEM
OR JOIN THEM.
So YES it’s forcing people to join them.
CCP hitting HS again?
More idiocy from CCP, big suprise. When will this end!!!
1 Like
- the cartel organizes with people who already have enough wealth to force it, dictate the prices of service, and ■■■■ everybody else since “it’s CCP grand view of the things”. You have ONE group that keeps all structures in HS, and nobody else can place a structure least be removed since they are the not the “bigger fish”.
The same EXACT thing that is happening with TTT and co.
sounds about right
You get none of the benefits that joining them would give. It is not joining them.
You seem to be laboring under the impression that these null groups literally just take absolutely anyone who wants to join, and that everyone will decide ‘if I’m going to have to pay them, I might as well join’, and neither of those things are true. Not even Horde takes absolutely anyone anymore.
No, it is not the same. Showing off your inability to comprehend that 1+1=/=3 will not change that.
You seem to be under the impression that I give a a ■■■■ about what your opinion is.
For a small corps, it’s the same thing. Your opinion on the matter is irrelevant.
Then why have you been talking to him for the last hour?