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1152

I think it’s not correct to say being forced to pay for a service is the same as being forced to join a group. It’s also not correct to say it’s the same as renting, because again, renters get more benefits out of the deal. I think the TTT is a demonstrably and measurably worse deal for small groups in highsec, and it sucks to be them.

I also think it goes back to that whole ‘larger groups do better with things like this’, because, you know, gunboat diplomacy and we’ll blow up your crap if it presents any serious competition. That’s not to say there haven’t been niche markets where people could do exactly that… but that’s not where the real money is, and everyone knows it.

Is it fair? No. I think the correct word for what it represents is ‘Capitalism’. The TEST-led TTC1 is shamelessly exploiting the HS groups’ desire to maximize their profits, and using that desire to fatten their own wallets. At the same time, I’m reasonably sure TEST and Horde (as the two major partners in the TTC) would have no qualms about using the money you guys pay into it to have HS competitors wardec’d and blown up.

In that regard, it’s not exactly all that different than the robber-barons of the American Gilded Age, who’d hire mercs and rabble-rousers to disrupt and sabotage their competition, and even used the United States Army to enforce their exploitive practices on their workers when they tried to protest and organize strikes. That’s Capitalism. That’s what it looks like when it’s unfettered, and EVE’s capitalism is largely unfettered by things like anti-trust measures, monopoly-busting, and enforced competition.

It’s not nitpicking to say ‘A is not the same as B’, either. Claiming they’re the same, when they’re blatantly not, makes you look stupid—even (ESPECIALLY) if you’re not—and it makes it extremely easy for people to dismiss what you’re saying out of hand, because you come across like you don’t have the first clue how things actually work.

What you’re looking for isn’t ‘the same’, it’s ‘exploitation’—which is not the same as saying it’s a game exploit, because it’s clearly not. And yes, the natural way to resist that kind of exploitation is for the exploited masses (RL, labor, in EVE, highsec) to organize, come together, and force change with the power of numbers. Yes, the only way you will stop null groups exploiting the disorganized and fragmented nature of highsec is to achieve organization and cohesion.

Welcome to human interaction, it’s been this way for the last 2 million years, give or take.

1. And yes, we’re getting a cut of that, too… specifically so we don’t blow it up. It’s graft and corruption all around, yaaaaaaay!

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1153

That was good, thanks for the chuckle! :wink:

1154

Spot on, Dunk. [nm, you got the typo]

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1155

You kept your point exceptionally clear and stayed polite while at it! Seriously, the following post is a good example of good forum communication, and it actually does help, so thanks!

Reply

Hamish Grayson

Brisc_Rubal

36m

@Brisc_Rubal

I’ll try to be clearer to avoid further miscommunication. It might even be best just to describe my current situation.

I rely on Free Port Raitarus owned by small groups to produce t2. These Raitarus are usually more than 15 jumps from Jita. I do this because the Engineering Complexes owned by ICY or other big bloc proxies that are near Jita are too expensive to be profitable due to the high system Index cost of solar systems near Jita.

There are multiple high-sec groups who are dedicated to attacking Raitaru owned by small 10 man corps with 50-100 man Leshak fleets.

When you stick a guaranteed 600M bounty on high-sec Raitaus, the Dawn, PIRATE, CODE etc are just going to rampage and these Free ports that I use will disappear. I will then be left with two options. I will have to build near Jita or in an NPC station with a low solar system index.

It’s safe to say that both of these will cost about the same, maybe a little more near jita. The system index will just keep raising until it cost a little more to produce in an Engineering comples near jita than it does in an NPC station more distance. Then some folks will move until the two cost roughly equalize.

Now, my competitors also have to eat these same costs so really all it doesn’t put me at that much of a disadvantage. I think that might be something a few of the other commentators here might not be thinking about.

However, what it does do is force me to move my production back to jita or into an NPC station.

CCP have stated explicitly that it is their desire to disburse manufacturing away from Jita and out of NPC stations. This change does the opposite and I think maybe they are looking at the bloc war and not thinking about the unintended consequences.

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1156

They will NOW. And that’s the point.

People that aren’t going to defend their structures shouldn’t have them in the first place.

Because they can’t be destroyed.

If players make them, and they can never be destroyed, they’d soon be worthless and their whole purpose is defeated.

1157

Yeah, now that the rants/insults have slowed down, I’m learning a lot more.

1158

If you don’t understand what I am saying : don’t answer, you are just wasting your time.

more nitpicking…

Just the same way renting and corp tax is.
So yes it’s the same in that regard.
so yes, CCP will force small corps to join big corp. Thank you for finally admitting it !

BS.

The usual “people who play like this or like that should that or this”, which claims that only your way of playing is acceptable.

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1159

Why? If I anchor something, I calculate how long I think it will last vs the profit I can make before it pops.

1160

It’s simply saying that players should adapt to the environment.

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1161

No, you made a moral judgement based on nothing. That’s just BS.

Literally as constructive as “People who don’t like strawberries should not be allowed to raise children”. (yes I tried to make that example completely stupid)

It just shows how narrow-minded you are.

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1162

So when people say,

Don’t fly what you can’t afford to lose.
If you couldn’t defend it, it wasn’t yours to begin with

That equates to children and strawberries?

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1163

some how knowing just how buggy the patches have been the last few months this will be broken as hell with more bugs then jita has gaint mutant roaches

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1164

There is, in fact, a massive amount of difference between not understanding what you’re saying, and disagreeing. You’re saying that being forced to pay a fee that comes up only because of where you choose to do your market trading or your production is the same as being forced to join a group—essentially, that either way, you’re supporting that group’s efforts. And you are supporting that group’s efforts. But the two types of support are very different.

In one, you’re a member of the group. You and your goals are considered to have value to the group beyond the simple economic value they get from your market and industry activity. There are social bonds. You can influence the group. You could even, potentially, become a member of group leadership, and so exercise even more influence over the members’ behavior.

In the other… you’re just ISK. You’re not even a person, let alone a person whose interests they care about. They don’t know your name, they don’t want to know your name. You’re not even a commodity. You’re just a semi-regular recurring fee. You have no influence. You have no avenue to gaining influence.

In one of these, you are benefiting as part of the group. The group is not working to exploit you, but to provide you with benefits because the group is best served by each of its members being well-served. In the other… you exist purely to be exploited.

And no, CCP will not force small corps to join big corps. Small corps’ desire to not be exploited will, if anything does. But they won’t, just the same, because people value their self-sufficiency to enough of a degree that they’ll resist the effective solutions to their problems, just because they’d rather have something to complain about than be inconvenienced in more ephemeral, but also more irritating ways.

None of this is ‘forced’. Not a single bit. The only one making the decisions for you is you, and ultimately, maybe you decide the only winning move… is not to play. And that’s ok, too.

It is. Only you know the value of your time. If you feel you’re not getting that value here, go find it someplace that’s better for you. Losing people would suck, sure, and EVE’d be a poorer game for it… but you know, that’s a form of ‘organization and cohesion’, too. If everyone in highsec, or even a significant chunk of highsec, told CCP ‘nope, we’re done, this is bullcrap’ and just logged out for a week, you’d see CCP get off their asses and respond, I promise.

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1165

That is only your interpretation, but talks a lot about you ability to understand what an example is.

But “don’t fly what you can’t afford to lose” is an advice, not a judgement. Just because someone does not follow your advice does not give you the right to judge him.
And your second quote is intrinsically absurd. It’s the usual ■■■■■■■■ that toxic people tell to other to harm them while pretending to be their friend.

No I’m not.

  1. I don’t understand why you put emphasis on those words. They are used on word that are heavily weighted so you are actually begging a question, so no. Your sentence is just a complete nonsense, because you are putting on me thing I did not talk about at all, like “only becasue of where you chose(…)”.
  2. I am talking about small industrial HS corp, a context you completely ignore in your interpretation.
  3. No, supporting means you have a choice. Here you have none. The correct term is racket. When you are coerced into paying, it’s racket.

BS.
Renters are just financial value that is taken by force. Nothing more.

Now CCP wants to force people to be racketed by someone in HS too.

So yes, CCP is trying to force small corps into joining big corps, as you already admitted.
There will be HS renter just like there was NS renters before.
There will be industrialist cartel just like there was market cartel, in HS.

And no, you are wrong. It’s not “capitalism”, as even US have antitrust laws.
There is nothing of the same in Eve. It’s just CCP making a group of players who are already rich, richer, and preventing anyone else from becoming rich by the simple fact that anyone will need to pay that group of player.

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1167

Perfect theme song for this upcoming release.

Let it Burn

1168

I thought it would be…

1169

Then there wouldn’t be anything to justify the risk, so we’d just go back and gut highsec with the fortunes we already have.

1170

If the core from a dropped citadel is scooped into a transport or a freighter, and the ship is popped, does the core still drop, or can it be destroyed by the RNG like any cargo?

1171

You absolutely do. You don’t have to use their structures. Use the NPC stations. Use stations or structures further from the market to bring the system index costs down.

LOL. No, they’re not. Renters, in any decent rental agreement, have rights, protection, and access to redress. Horde doesn’t get to go shooting NCdot’s renters, for example.

Nope. In fact, I’m willing to bet CCP actively doesn’t want that. They don’t. CCP wants highsec players fragmented and disorganized, and they’d probably prefer low and nullsec players be that way, too. The more fragmented the players are, the weaker they are. The more organized the players are, the stronger they are.

Do you think CCP prefers to have to deal with organized groups? Which do you think CCP would rather face: 10,000 players who don’t talk to one another, don’t compare notes, and have no leadership… or 10,000 players who work things out together, look at what impact CCP’s changes will have, and then get mad about it, together?

No management group wants the labor group to be organized. No business groups wants their customers to be organized. Small, disorganized groups can be pushed around more. They can be made to accept things large groups would stand up to and say ‘no, we’ll take our business elsewhere, thanks’.

And? That just means the US doesn’t have unfettered capitalism. EVE does, to a much larger extent, and none of the anti-trust laws in any nation on Earth have any meaning in EVE.

That’s what capitalism looks like, without those protections. Unfettered capitalism leads to monopolies, and oligarchy.

And for the record:

You pull this ‘ability to understand’ thing a lot. But one thing that you don’t seem to understand is that nobody here is a telepath. When you’re communicating, the onus is on you to make your point clearly enough for the reader/listener to understand it. It always is.

If you’re a teacher, and you start explaining quantum physics to third-graders using the language you’d use in a graduate studies course, it’s not the kids’ fault that they don’t understand. It’s yours. You’re not communicating properly to your audience. Just something to consider the next time you decide to start throwing around accusations about peoples ‘ability to understand’. For example:

I put emphasis on those words because I wanted to emphasize them. You choose where to do your production. You choose where to do your shopping. CCP doesn’t force it. CCP doesn’t control it. The TTT doesn’t control it, either. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from choosing to do those things elsewhere.

There may be considerations that make that choice unpalatable. Factors might exist that make it unpleasant to go and do your production somewhere else. It could be inconvenient to shop elsewhere. But you can still choose to do so. Nobody makes that decision for you. You choose it.

You. Nobody else. And you making that choice is the only reason you’re paying the TTT any fees whatsoever. I sell ships in Hek. I don’t pay the TTT a dime when I sell them. I chose not to. See? Not being forced. Entirely my own choice.

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1172

It really isn’t. I can pay a small fee for using services, but I don’t have to deal with any of the other stuff that goes along with being a part of that group. No one using Free-Ported Citadels in Perimeter is getting called up for fleets out in Null just because they stopped by and built something.

Last I checked quite a few of these don’t have much if any tax set, because the whole “taxing people to use services at Citadels” thing turned into a race to the bottom. At most it’s a small tax, and is still better than doing whatever it is at an NPC station.

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