Regarding Bounties and Killrights

[Wombat_4_Combat]

Wait when did we get the bounty system back and how come I cant see it!

[Uriel_the_Flame]

What makes you say the bounty system is back?

As far as I know the only bounty currently in game are the NPC bounties and my current event:

Kherub Angels 4th anniversary bounty hunt giveaway event (100 mil ISK per kill)

[khan] Kherub Angels 4th anniversary bounty hunt giveaway event ★ Summary To celebrate the 4th anniversary of the foundation of the Kherub Angels corporation (founded on the 30th of April in 2017, EVE time) AND to honor the bounty hunting profession we will be holding a bounty hunt giveaway event where bounty hunters will be tasked to destroy Mobile Depots of the temporary giveaway character @100mil-ISK_For-KillingMy_Mobile_Depot whose public zkillboard will determine who will receive the b…

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

It’s not. Kill rights are but not the bounty system. @Brisc_Rubal did you ever find out what is up with this?

[Alex_N_Kamal]

@Ramona_McCandless

How do you determine who owns the characters doing the voting?

I don’t see why you would need to know if it’s random who reviews it. There would be no way to target the ones you want to affect other than pure chance and luck. But if you really needed a way to do so, like any popular anti-cheating software on the market, you track ip.

@Ramona_McCandless

And if it’s easy how come it isn’t done on Proj. Disco?

That’s a question for CCP. They seem satisfied with just putting a speedometer on it. I think maybe the isk faucet is too small to warrant them to invest in doing more (It’s not a priority). See chart below.

[Brisc_Rubal]

No - other things are more front of mind right now, lol.

[Aiko_Danuja]

How hard is it to ask a question?

[Brisc_Rubal]

He asked if I’ve found out - I haven’t. I have asked the question, but I have not followed up to get more answers. Even if I did, I couldn’t share them, I could only answer “yes” or “no” - I can’t elaborate.

The worst question to ask any of us is any permutation “did CCP explain” or “did you ask about, X” because I can only give yes or no answers. You don’t want a yes or no answer, you want to know what they told us, and we can’t share that.

[Ramona_McCandless]

Speedometer and masked voting will not stop bots and it hasnt in Proj
Disco.

[Aiko_Danuja]

Ok, it’s fine. Brisc did nothing wrong, and I hereby absolve him of any responsibility for CCP’s inability to communicate.

[Cypherous]

@Alex_N_Kamal

and I still haven’t come across anyone suggesting player-reviewed bounties to end the exploitation.

Because its obviously pointless, people are always going to vote they are fine just incase they end up getting a share of that ISK in a random kill later, alts also mean you can’t even do background checks on people for vetting so the system would be gamed rendering it pointless

@Alex_N_Kamal

and paying a modest amount to people who like to review ganks would be more than enough motivation.

What does watching a gank have to do with bounties and killrights?

Killrights get granted automatically and player bounties are assigned by players, nobody is going to want to sit and watch videos of ganks all day for literally no reason lol, not to mention you’re somehow expecting CCP to record every single kill that happens where the player was in some way given a timer?

Yeah good luck with that lol

@Uriel_the_Flame

What makes you say the bounty system is back?

Honestly, probably the best time to just remove the system finally, its never served a use and it never really will without getting exploited, so might aswell just finally turn it off and start refunding pending pools

[Ramona_McCandless]

@Cypherous

start refunding pending pools

I bet they wouldnt do that

[Cypherous]

It automatically does it if players go inactive so its a fairly simple process to do

[Ramona_McCandless]

Really? Huh

What determines inactive?

[Aaaarrgg]

no bounty payouts for 6 month and the bounty is sent back to the issuer, well 50% is sent back. Thats my memory of what happens.

[Ramona_McCandless]

OK cool, I never knew that. Thanks!

[Alex_N_Kamal]

@Cypherous

people are always going to vote they are fine just in case they end up getting a share of that ISK in a random kill later

I’m not suggesting approving a bounty being placed. I’m suggesting approving whether a person gets to collect a bounty or not. People who made the gank are not going to get to vote on it. That would defeat the whole purpose…

@Cypherous

alts also mean you can’t even do background checks on people

I don’t know why you would need a “background check”, but you can certainly track every character/alt someone has regardless of what account it’s on via ip address in which case a review wouldn’t even be needed. Bounty automatically denied if someone killed themselves with an alt.

Even if they did mask their IP, It would be highly unlikely they would get to review their own gank based on just how many kills there are each day. You’d have to sit there forever going through them hoping to find yours and competing with other reviewers for the spot.

@Cypherous

nobody is going to want to sit and watch videos of ganks all day for literally no reason lol

The primary reason is to help determine if a gank was legitimate or not. There are other reasons to watch ganks too. First off it’s a pvp learning experience. 2nd it’s entertaining. 3rd, based on my suggestion they get paid to do it. Even if it is a modest amount. Some people do these mini-games all day long just for the small amount of isk it gives.

@Cypherous

not to mention you’re somehow expecting CCP to record every single kill that happens where the player was in some way given a timer?

Everything is already recorded in logs. This is evident if you ever try to get your ship refunded for it blowing up due to server problems. Text data is very small in file size and can be continuously recycled easily.

@Ramona_McCandless

Speedometer and masked voting will not stop bots and it hasnt in Proj
Disco.

Well, a captcha is always an option if necessary. Hopefully, CCP would make a fun one.

[Ramona_McCandless]

@Alex_N_Kamal

Well, a captcha is always an option if necessary.

But Im telling you that bots currently game the mechanism you want to use for your bounty voting (still have no idea why people would be needed to vote on it), and CCP hasnt put in measures like that to stop it.

@Alex_N_Kamal

Everything is already recorded in logs. This is evident if you ever try to get your ship refunded for it blowing up due to server problems. Text data is very small in file size and can be continuously recycled easily.

Youre basically saying KMs are to be peer reviewed. Im sorry thats just never going to work.

[Cypherous]

@Alex_N_Kamal

People who made the gank are not going to get to vote on it. That would defeat the whole purpose…

Alts, yeah good luck with that, and the method of kill has no relevance on a bounty, the payment is made when the person with a bounty explodes

@Alex_N_Kamal

but you can certainly track every character/alt someone has regardless of what account it’s on via ip address in which case a review wouldn’t even be needed.

Internet cafes, university dorms, houses with multiple EVE players, yeah there is a reason IP’s aren’t really used for anything important

@Alex_N_Kamal

You’d have to sit there forever going through them hoping to find yours and competing with other reviewers for the spot.

See the issue is, unless you’re paying people, they aren’t reviewing them, and if you’re paying them they are putting in the minimum effort for the maximum payout, just go look at the tribunal system league of legends added, then removed, due to it not actually doing anything of value

@Alex_N_Kamal

The primary reason is to help determine if a gank was legitimate or not.

All ganks are legitimate, there are no illegitimate ganks

@Alex_N_Kamal

Everything is already recorded in logs. This is evident if you ever try to get your ship refunded for it blowing up due to server problems. Text data is very small in file size and can be continuously recycled easily.

See, you’re confusing server logs with a real time playback for the encounter, you need to know who locked who, when, the context for the attack, how do you know the player didn’t offend the people who killed him and they now hold a long term grudge against them etc, its not as open and shut as “This person died to 5 catalysts”, context matters, and you’re never going to be able to get the full information so you can’t really judge their claim

So yeah, its not a viable idea at all

[Alex_N_Kamal]

@Ramona_McCandless

But Im telling you that bots currently game the mechanism you want to use for your bounty voting (still have no idea why people would be needed to vote on it), and CCP hasnt put in measures like that to stop it.

Okay, bots game the mechanism I want to use for bounty voting and hasn’t put in measures to stop it. That doesn’t mean they can’t. They just haven’t. I’ve personally set up so many captchas for so many companies to prevent botting to great effect. If CCP wants to do that they will. This isn’t an original idea, they already know they can do this.

The reason for voting is to prevent people from collecting their own bounties with a buddy’s help. You would be voting whether or not you think this is happing or not based on the data. [like how an auditor comes and decides whether to give you money when your house burns down or car gets hit. Did they burn their own house down? Did their buddy steal their car? Fraud prevention.]

@Cypherous

the payment is made when the person with a bounty explodes

I’m suggesting stopping immediate payouts. To pay a person after a review.

@Cypherous

the method of kill has no relevance on a bounty

So make it relevant. Have a few rules in place.

@Cypherous

Internet cafes, university dorms, houses with multiple EVE players, yeah there is a reason IP’s aren’t really used for anything important

Look at every major anti-cheating software on the market. Every single one of them use IP tracking to great effect. What you’re thinking is an issue hasn’t been an issue for a long time.

@Cypherous

See the issue is, unless you’re paying people, they aren’t reviewing them, and if you’re paying them they are putting in the minimum effort for the maximum payout, just go look at the tribunal system league of legends added, then removed, due to it not actually doing anything of value

So I looked into the tribunal system league of legends added, then removed and it was not removed due to it not actually doing anything of value, but not doing it fast enough.

" 1. It’s slow and inefficient. Manual reviews require pulling those chat logs out to the website, waiting for responses from enough players, and deciding on a penalty from there, while the current automated systems can send out penalties in less than 15 minutes." https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/08/ask-riot-will-tribunal-return/

On the contrary it was highly effective:

• More than 47 million votes have been cast in the Tribunal.
• 51% of Tribunal cases result in a guilty verdict, with only 5.7% earning a permanent ban.
• 74% of players warned by the Tribunal just once never end up there again.
• Over 700 individual cases were personally reviewed by Lyte and Pendragon.

Further reading: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/The_Tribunal (The comments also indicate it was effective)

What we can take for this is it would indeed work although bounty payouts would be slowed down. I’d also like to suggest only reviewing cases that has been flagged by the person who placed the bounty.

@Cypherous

See, you’re confusing server logs with a real time playback for the encounter

I’m saying you can recreate an encounter with text data instead of recording real time playback effectivly being almost the same for the viewer but being far more effecient for data storage.

@Cypherous

its not as open and shut as “This person died to 5 catalysts”, context matters, and you’re never going to be able to get the full information

I know but I’m convinced you can get enough information to make a judgement call. Just like gathering enough evidence in a court of law.

[Ramona_McCandless]

@Alex_N_Kamal

That doesn’t mean they can’t. They just haven’t. I’ve personally set up so many captchas for so many companies to prevent botting to great effect. If CCP wants to do that they will. This isn’t an original idea, they already know they can do this.

The point is they havent, so its not likely they would.

Now, in your expert opinion as someone who installs captchas, why do you think they havent?

@Alex_N_Kamal

The reason for voting is to prevent people from collecting their own bounties with a buddy’s help.

But that situation already existed. If you make it possible for players to influence it any further, all you are doing is setting it up for the very thing you are seeking to avoid.

@Alex_N_Kamal

I know but I’m convinced you can get enough information to make a judgement call. Just like gathering enough evidence in a court of law.

What has you convinced? Im pretty sure Cypherous, or myself or many others could bring you KMs nd ask you to make a judgement, knowing that the result is not as obvious as it looks.