Shared Bookmarks: Use-case Discussion

[Querns]

@CCP_Habakuk

Btw: This will also answer the question of others, if the expiry of a wormhole bookmark can be linked directly to the expiry of the wormhole (hint: no).

Yeah, I don’t think anyone reasonable would ask for the bookmark expiration date to be set to the actual wormhole expiration date. All I was asking that the wormhole bookmark be automatically set to expire, period, using a static time period in all cases, no matter how long the wormhole actually had to expire.

[Goyathla]

Question 1. I sometimes sell bookmarks. When finding a combat site I dont want to run, but someone else might, I make a contract and sell it.
I also used to make sets of bookmarks for critical structure locations and pass those those off to corp mates so they could have them. The current corp bookmarks system now takes care of that (thanks btw)
A third case is when one of my characters on one account find something and I need another character to run it, or come back to it later. Sometimes I will copy the bookmark and pass it off to one of my other characters. This can be really annoying when they are NOT in the same corp, and your proposed update to the bookmarks would make this far less painful as I would no longer need to go to the trouble of docking up and trading/contracting to get the bookmark on another character. So yes please, I like this suggested improvement already.

Question 2. Oh Good question, I suppose it might make it faster and easier to code in a limited number of options, but why limit it? why not have the option to set a custom number of hours?
Ok, back to it though, if I had to choose, something like 3-4 hours will work for most play sessions, 1 day is probably good for most wormhole bookmarks, but there are those that can last longer so perhaps 3 days would be good to cover some of those? After that I would be interested in something that could last a month or two. Those ones would be good for wars which often last a couple of months. While the geography might change over the war having a safe or a ping spot that sticks around on many systems for a month or two could be useful. I suppose those ones could also be in the unlimited category then be erased after the war is done/targets are destroyed?

Question 3. Tough question that I am sure lots of people will have different opinions on, I would say that it would probably be nice if the different subfolders just had different options for the expiry. This would allow for options within one shared set of bookmarks while also not having to need to be set for every single individual bookmark. It might also be nice if you could take one of more bookmarks for a set that expires and save them for yourself with a longer expiry or none at all.

[Anthony_Giola]

@CCP_Habakuk

Unfortunately this will quite likely not be possible (I’ll take a closer look, but it will probably be without a positive result). For the case of a wormhole we are only storing the coordinates of the wormhole and not the wormhole instance itself (and I don’t think that it would be good / easy to change this).
Btw: This will also answer the question of others, if the expiry of a wormhole bookmark can be linked directly to the expiry of the wormhole (hint: no).

Note: Great discussions here! I won’t get too involved at the moment, but I am for sure reading everything.

Thanks for the answer, and the explanation. Makes sense, very unfortunate that its the case though. If there was ever a UI system that allowed for easier travel through WH’s, or more intuitive design for new players, it would be amazing.

[CCP_Habakuk]

@Goyathla

Oh Good question, I suppose it might make it faster and easier to code in a limited number of options, but why limit it? why not have the option to set a custom number of hours?

It is actually not so much about faster and easier to code, but about keeping the user experience easy and clean. Providing too many options will make the UI more complicated - and creating a bookmark should be something, what you can do very fast (with good defaults),

[Rowells]

Is there anything in this relating to Fleet bookmarks?

[Survik_Gaterau]

Question 2 - Bookmark Expiry Lengths
2d - Expire length of the most signatures
4d - Expire length of the remaining signatures
Anything else

[Saeka_Tyr]

@CCP_Lebowski

1. In the current system, bookmarks can be extracted from the People & Places window and converted into “physical” items that can be traded with other players. In what ways do you currently use this functionality that would not be covered by the system detailed above?

The only reason we EVER use that functionality is to work around the fact there is no sharing mechanism. Distant secondary possibility: cache times.

@CCP_Lebowski

As mentioned above, when setting a bookmark to expire you will be able to choose from a pre-determined set of choices (e.g. 4 hours, 1 day, 7 days). If you were to choose three options for expiry length, which would you choose and why?

6 hours - covers a short term fleet operations, with a generous time buffer to avoid surprises.
24 hours - covers wormhole lifetime. Right?
7 days - covers medium term operations in a local area, eg where you are camping for a bit.

@CCP_Lebowski

As mentioned above, we are consider whether bookmarks should be set to expire at the Folder, Sub-folder or individual bookmark level. What use-cases do you foresee where you would utilize bookmark expiry, and of these options, which do you think would be the most appropriate level at which to set this expiry?

Not sure. Please make it as flexible as possible.

The most common use case that comes to mind are short term dives through a WH chain. A 24h expiry for a bookmark set that a fleet could use would solve a LOT of issues with making warpins available.

One thing I’m not seeing is a “fleet” setting. I’d like a bookmark folder that people automatically subscribe to and have access to by being in a fleet with me. Would require careful structuring but this is what I want.

[Anthony_Giola]

@CCP_Habakuk

It is actually not so much about faster and easier to code, but about keeping the user experience easy and clean. Providing too many options will make the UI more complicated - and creating a bookmark should be something, what you can do very fast (with good defaults),

If I can recommend from a WH POV-it should go something roughly like this—

1h/4h//16hr/24hr/36hr/72hr

[Dravick_Afterthought]

KISS - all we really need are Alliance bookmarks which work the same as Corps bookmarks, but for the whole Alliance - anything else is just icing on the cake.

[firranu]

First of all bookmark sharing is an awesome idea !

I would like also to share bookmark with fleet this should be very good

@CCP_Lebowski

Question 1 - Bookmark Vouchers

In the current system, bookmarks can be extracted from the People & Places window and converted into “physical” items that can be traded with other players. In what ways do you currently use this functionality that would not be covered by the system detailed above?

Yes I use a lot of this functionality to sell escalation site or scanned sites. IF ACL allow get ISK from a bookmark it will be OK for me but it seems to be complex to understand

@CCP_Lebowski

Question 2 - Bookmark Expiry Lengths

As mentioned above, when setting a bookmark to expire you will be able to choose from a pre-determined set of choices (e.g. 4 hours, 1 day, 7 days). If you were to choose three options for expiry length, which would you choose and why?

First bookmark expiry is a very good idea ! Especially for scanning sites or escalations.

My three options should be but it seem to few for me :

• 1 day

• 7days

• never

@CCP_Lebowski

Question 3 - Setting Bookmark Expiry

As mentioned above, we are consider whether bookmarks should be set to expire at the Folder, Sub-folder or individual bookmark level. What use-cases do you foresee where you would utilize bookmark expiry, and of these options, which do you think would be the most appropriate level at which to set this expiry?

I think the two expiry option (individuals and folder) are interesting and complementary so I would like to have both. But if you want to only one it should be folder so we will not be force to set expiry on every bookmark

Moreover bookmark expiry for personal bookmark is interesting too !

[Circumstantial_Evidence]

@Querns

…has a type_id associated with it, referencing the type of object.

The ask: can all wormhole bookmarks automatically set to expire after a set period of time? It wouldn’t need to be smart; we don’t want a bookmark to divine the exact lifetime of a wormhole.

The type_id can be of the wormhole, or… of the warp-in signature for the WH. Some players will make their BM from the probe scanner, which is a signature or perhaps a hidden beacon. Both of these bookmark types would have to auto-expire, 3 days sounds fine.

I would want auto-expire to be an option , because I have kept numerous expired WH bm’s over the years to re-use as ‘safe spots.’

[Querns]

@Circumstantial_Evidence

The type_id can be of the wormhole , or… of the warp-in signature for the WH. Some players will make their BM from the probe scanner, which is a signature or perhaps a hidden beacon. Both of these bookmark types would have to auto-expire, 3 days sounds fine.

Ah yeah, excellent point. I’d forgotten about that.

[Barracus_Eistiras]

I love what you’re describing! It’s awesome that you guys are looking at developing this huge QoL improvement, and thanks for giving us an opportunity to inform its development!

In response to Question 1) As others have mentioned, selling bookmarks via vouchers is common and would be difficult with this new system. I would also say that I use vouchers when I want to transfer only a sub-set of the bookmarks that I have, for example a specific path through a wormhole chain for hauling. Instead of sharing every bookmark in the chain I only transfer those that I’ll need. Under the proposed system I’d need to create an entirely new folder for this, which isn’t a terrible solution, but I could see needing an annoying number of folders to handle something that was easy via vouchers.

In response to Question 2: I think these should be one week or shorter. Any bookmark that would be needed for a longer period of time, like an insta-dock or tactical bookmark, would have no limited end date for their usefulness and can be deleted manually with no problem. 12 Hours would let me bookmark things that are only relevant during my current game session, 2 days for things to despawn themselves (Wormholes and other signatures), and 1 week for anything else.

In response to Question 3: Definitely not at the folder level (which based on how they were described I take to be analogous to current corp and personal bookmark groups). My bookmarks are grouped thematically, so if the expiration were set at the folder level I would need 4x as many folders, one for each duration + permanent, and then sub-folders for each topic. If instead I could just have sub-folders of similar bookmarks expire at the appropriate times that would be easier.

[Steve_Ronuken]

Speak for yourself.

I know a bunch of people who would be very very pleased to get this kind of thing.

[Steve_Ronuken]

Yes, and no.

No, there’s no specific acl for fleet membership.

Yes, you could simulate it, as long as you either A: trust everyone in fleet not to share the link (then just have a public one. you still need the link to get into it) b: are willing to add everyone to the ACL

[Dopare_Enipra]

Question 1: To materialize and trade bookmarks.

Question 2: I think regardless of predefined choices there should be a date-time picker control.

Question 3: I think bookmarks expiry date should inherit from parent sub-folder or folder.

Please also consider updating existing drop-down control with autocomplete support to search these folders.

[Consigned_Shipping]

@Steve_Ronuken

as long as you either A: trust everyone in fleet not to share the link (then just have a public one. you still need the link to get into it) b: are willing to add everyone to the ACL

I think this could be fixed by being able to share a link to a folder that only allows blue standings to access. Much like how contract visibility is limited to alliance/corp/character even if you link it in chat.

[Pearl_Abyss_Diver]

@CCP_Lebowski

Question 1 - Bookmark Vouchers
In the current system, bookmarks can be extracted from the People & Places window and converted into “physical” items that can be traded with other players. In what ways do you currently use this functionality that would not be covered by the system detailed above?

While I welcome ACL Bookmarks it’s assuredly going to streamline the process of exploration bots being able to map out wormholes with greater precision.

I.e. One group of several hundred exploration bots can log in, bookmark, and log out. With these updated regularly the bot maker can sell their bookmark list to subscribers. While groups like Signal Cartel and Eve Scout can participate in these emergent niche markets, I doubt they can perform at the same level as exploration bots.

I would suggest a limiter.

Players who have not docked up in 16 hours may only create personal bookmarks.

[Consigned_Shipping]

It’s awesome you’re thinking about bot implications, but if I’m CCP I’d be very happy knowing who else accessed an ACL when I find a bot.

[Prime_Codex]

TIL exploration bots existed.

@CCP_Lebowski can we increase the amount of bookmarks we can save? I think the current limit of 500 is too low.