Shared Bookmarks: Use-case Discussion

EVE Technology and Research Center Upcoming Features & Changes
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One quick question I have is: what does this mean for the bookmark limit? Can we get more than 500 now without exploiting anything?

Otherwise:

Question 2:

In terms of wormholes, bookmarks would realistically have to last ~48 hours max, but there’ve been a few times I’ve seen a wormhole last for a little longer than it should have - so maybe 72 hours is a reasonable lifetime, alongside week/month options. Less than 72 hours would have pretty limited use cases, and if you need a bookmark for longer than a month you might as well remove it manually once you’re done with it.

Question 3:

Again, from the perspective of someone who deals with wormholes and wormhole bookmarks regularly, it’s not uncommon to split your bookmarks up into folders (or what will be subfolders, I suppose) for bookmarking seeded systems, farms, home chains, etc. Probably ideal would be subfolder level seeing as generally, all the bookmarks grouped into a subfolder will be the same type of bookmark (i.e. wormhole, site, etc).

However, one question this brings up is if you mean you set a subfolder to have 72 hour clearance and then every bookmark dies 72 hours after its inception, or if they all die 72 hours after the initial one is created. For obvious reasons the prior is preferable.

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I would suggest a limiter.

Players who have not docked up in 16 hours may only create personal bookmarks.

I get your concern but it’s very common to seed a system without docking access and log in regularly to scan chains for various reasons - if you then need to share that chain but haven’t docked because you can’t dock, what the hell are you supposed to do?

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63

Possibly slightly of topic but can the same be used for sharing items in structures, ie having hangers/folders across characters/corporations/alliances would be just great. Anyone with a number of lats within a corporation would benefit of not having to use corp hangers but their own predefined access list.

Just drooping it here as it links with the mechanic I believe.

To answer specific questions:
1: selling access to WH or leaving it for someone that you don’t want to share anything long term
selling/buying anoms and other locations
generally ad hoc interaction that requires passing a bookmark
2: 28h - majority oof regular WHs and fast rotating sites will expire within 24h, a bit of contingency for ‘random events’
7 days - some less popular sites will take few days, some more permanent WHs will last over 24h
30 days - long term option without making it permanent for when you are deploying etc
3: sub-folder would be best in my opinion as when you scan a bookmark you can save it in preset sub-folder for it to expire, although when extracting a single bookmark it would be great to be able to give it expiry so that it can disappear after certain amount of time when it is no longer relevant ie WH/DED expired.

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Question 1 - Bookmark Vouchers

This one will depend on what the bookmark limit is in the new system, and how easy it is to copy from one ACL folder to another. In addition to the bookmark sales that others have brought up I also use the bookmark items as a way to store excess situational bookmarks. For example, I have cans that contain large numbers of tacticals that would be used for structure defense but we don’t need them cluttering up the current limited corp bookmark supply. If the new limit is >2500 I probably wouldn’t need to do that, if it is less than that we would probably still want to put them somewhere we could get to them if needed. That could be a can of physical bookmarks or a separate ACL folder, which we would need to later copy from or extend access to if needed.

Question 2 - Bookmark Expiry Lengths

1 Day: Normal wormhole chain and temporary tactical bookmarks.
2 Days: Those weird 2 day C6 wormholes, temporary tacs we might want another day.
7 Days: Site signatures, small operation tacticals (structure bash, etc.)
Never: Station bookmarks, structure tacs, gate tacs, etc.

I’d actually like the “1 day” and “2 days” options to be 25/50 hours instead of 24/48, wormhole life expectancy is typically slightly longer than the actual EoL timer, and I don’t want the bookmark expiring 15 minutes before the actual wormhole does.

I could trade the 2 day timer for a one month timer and still be pretty happy.

Question 3 - Setting Bookmark Expiry

Default should be assignable at the subfolder level, and if there is a limit on number of subfolders it needs to be at least 10.

Example

  • Home Chain Wormholes (1 Day)
  • Operation Chain Wormholes (1 Day)
  • Signatures (7 Days)
  • Station Bookmarks (Never)
  • Gate Tacs (Never)
  • Temporary Tacs (1 Day)
  • Operation Tacs (7 Days)
  • Safe Spots (Never)

Out there wishlist item: Bookmarks can currently be broadcast in the fleet window, but you can’t actually align/warp to the bookmark. Making those broadcasts functional, at least for any fleet member with the bookmark would be great.

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65

Question 1: One important use case of the current system is the ability to permanently transfer a bookmark to someone, i.e. allowing them to import it into their own bookmarks. If the new system does not allow for this, that would be a significant lack. Notably, this needs to be possible on an individual bookmark basis (i.e. selling DEDs), not just a folder/subfolder one.

Question 2: I don’t think three options is enough. However, if that is all we get, I would pick: 6 hours (EoL wormholes and/or about the maximum length of a normal fleet), 2 days (fresh wormholes or tacs/etc in advance of a 24hr timer), and 7 days (longer timers). If I got to add three more, I would choose 3 hours, 12 hours, and 1 day. If I got to do even more, then I’d add 1 hour, 3 days, and 14 days. (And, of course, I am assuming ‘never’ is also always an option.)

Question 3: This is the big one.

For me, bookmark expiry I would imagine using for temporary tacs (timers, missions, MTUs/salvaging, etc), single-fleet-duration shared bookmarks, or for wormholes. In all of these cases, I can foresee situations where I would want both folder/subfolder level duration control as well as individual-bookmark level control. For example, a ‘wormholes’ bookmark subfolder could reasonably be set to have a default expiry timer of 2 days, as no wormhole will be sticking around longer than that. However, I would also want to be able to set a wormhole bookmark to expire sooner, for example if I see a wormhole is EoL.

As such, I would suggest that bookmark expiry exist on a per-bookmark level but with the ability to also set default expiry on a per-subfolder level. I’m just going to quote what I said on reddit when this first came up:

Imagine you have your ‘wormholes’ subfolder, you can right click on it in the places window or whatever and set this folder to have a default expiry time of 48 hours. When you create the bookmark, in the window that pops up you have the dropdown to select which subfolder you want to save it in, and then you have the radio button to select the expiry time. When you pick your ‘wormholes’ subfolder from the dropdown, it then automatically sets the radio button to the ‘48 hour’ setting. If that’s what you want, then you don’t need to do anything else, but say you see this wormhole is EoL, so for this particular bookmark you then manually set the radio button to 4 hours instead. This particular bookmark will then expire in 4 hours, but doing that doesn’t affect the default setting for the subfolder so the next bookmark you create pops up with the wormholes subfolder selected and the radio button already set to 48 hours again. And if this next bookmark you want to create is, say, a gate tac rather than a wormhole, then you pick your ‘tacs’ subfolder and the radio button automatically flips to the ‘never’ expiry that you had previously set as default for that subfolder. (‘Never’ would presumably be the default default expiry setting for subfolders that you haven’t specifically set something else as default for.)

If it is decided that something like this isn’t possible and I have to choose either folder/subfolder level or individual bookmark level but not both, I would definitely pick the individual bookmark level. Having it only at the individual bookmark level would lose a bit of convenience in that I’d have to set it every time I make a bookmark, but it doesn’t lose any functionality. Having it only at the folder/subfolder level, on the other hand, does lose functionality, in that I have to resort to silly things like having separate ‘wormholes’ and ‘EoL wormholes’ subfolders with different expirys set in order to work around not being able to do it on an individual level.

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66

Would it be hard to make that? You’d have dynamic ACL’s then, but I suppose in the end it’s just a matter of conditions. A dynamic fleet BM folder would totally change scouting and fleet movement.

67

tbh, no real idea.

Fleets are very ephemeral, in comparison to everything else. that might lead to problems for performance. You’d want to add new fleet positions, to allow for scouts who can add bookmarks. (Or at least I’d want to)

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68

Can I have all the current functionality but with instant propagation to other clients with access to it.
That is all I really need. :wink:

Nice to have would be the ability to instantly trade non-physical bookmarks with other corporations or players. You could make it require whatever role already required to delete BMs.

Access lists and folders sounds like something that takes time to set up and manage, which for me is the opposite of QOL. Especially if I have to move the BMs around between access lists and folders every time I need to trade them to a different guy.

I use physical BMs every time I need to share outside of corp.
Auto expire sounds cool, but it needs to be a modular timer. No 3 set timers fits all use cases, especially not since the WH and signature timers have been borked for years. I would use it for some wormholes though, but only if I can tie it to the individual bookmark without having to deal with switching folders between bookmarking, and only if you promise I won’t have a WH bug out on me and stay longer than the max life time it’s supposed to stay.

The less clicks needed to set up a bookmark, the better.
Current system is fine imo. Just need propagation to be instant and maybe a trade option.
<3

69

Personally if we were able to share access to a folder, I would not see myself using the BM vouchers much anymore. But does also make me think about the possiblity of adding a read/write/copy permission system to handle cases where it is needed. I.e. have important bookmarks set to Read only for one access list so linemember dont accidentally deleted them and spys cant share them (easily). But day to day bookmarks made opnen to read/write/copy (voucher creation)

I would choose 4 hours, 1 day and 2 days. As a worm hole alliance i could see us mainly using expiry time to coinside with the identifiable life of the worm.

Text Meaning Slang
not yet begun to decay more than 24 hours Fresh
beginning to decay between 4 and 24 hours Fresh
reaching the end less than 4 hours EOL

This could save alot of amin when clearing our bookmark folders which often hit their max contents.

At bookmark level. As stated when bookmarking wormhole within for example our chain folder the chain would not expire but the wormholes within it.

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Question 1 - Bookmark Vouchers
I don’t use them this way, but some people trade bookmarks for ISK (e.g. escalations). I also have a few meme bookmarks lying around that I would miss if they disappeared.

Question 2 - Bookmark Expiry Lengths
1 day, 2 days, and 1 week would be fine. Really, just one option (of 24 hours) would be fine for me, since it would automatically clean up old wormhole chains and that’s the main thing I’d use expiry for.

Question 3 - Setting Bookmark Expiry

I only foresee setting auto-expiry on wormhole bookmarks (or perhaps stringed rolling safes). It would be extremely useful to be able to set expiry at the folder/subfolder level (anything that reduces clicks/keystrokes on things we do thousands upon thousands of times is an absolute godsend). It would also be handy to be able edit at a per-bookmark level, if possible.

If you had to prioritize, I would say Folder > Individual BM > Subfolder.

72

That’s a great point. I’d image they’d go with obfuscation by making the access lists as public as possible and putting privately agreed upon ‘codes’ in the bookmark IDs to ‘throw off’ people who aren’t ‘real’ subscribers.

However, bookmark bots might be a benefit to wormholes. It’ll probably be nice to see more people diving into wormholes for potential fights.

73

I seed holes too. Arguably there’s not enough risk to the activity now that endless scanning alts can be spooled up on alphas.

With my proposal (restate: If a player remains undocked in space for longer than 16 hours they can no longer save corporation/extended access bookmark until they dock with a structure. However, they are free to save personal bookmarks. Personal bookmarks can be transferred normally to the Corp folder once the player docks.)

You have three options:

  1. Scan a way out of the wormhole to a structure. Once docked the timer resets and player is free to transfer personal bookmarks to a Corp folder. Undock and backtrack to seeded hole. Log out.
  2. Self destruct and burn the seed. Medical clone is in structure. Bookmark transfer lock timer resets.
  3. Anchor dockable structure in hole.
74

Selling DED sites. Also selling ping/tac bundles for a region. What immediately springs to mind here is that players will inevitably create a bunch of public tactical bookmarks for regions, allowing anyone to roam there with pseudo home field advantage. This could be good or bad, but I feel like it mostly means less fights while nerds bounce around in huge grids never engaging.

How about n minutes, n hours, n days with caps at 120, 48, and 30 respectively? Otherwise 1h, 1d, 1w I guess. The problem with set durations is there are several cases where you might want one OR two of a unit. 1 day or two days for a wormhole; 2 hours for wrecks.

Subfolder definitely seems useful for a WH chain. If you know roughly how long your static has to live, you can just set that chain to expire after it’s gone. Individual bookmarks expiring also seems useful for, as mentioned above, things like wrecks you want to come back to salvage, but will go away after some time if you forget about them or get lazy or whatever.

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Keep in mind that a number of wormholes (B520, C391, B041) have 48 hour lifetimes.

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As a member of WiNGSPAN, I want to make it super clear that the #1 thing I would like to see, above anything in your list, is an increase in the 500 Corp Bookmarks limit. Slapping an extra zero on that number would improve our play style more then all the other things combined.

I haven’t seen you mention what the limit will be, but please consider making it more then 500, 1000 would be nice, 10,000 would probably be optimal. More would be gravy (we could actually bookmark sites instead of just holes!).

I want to give you an idea of how fast we burn though 500 corp bookmarks, cause 500 sounds like a lot. Let me dive into what WiNGSPAN is and what we do.

WiNGSPAN is a loose organization of wormhole divers. Most of the time we hunt alone in our own chains, only calling for backup if we find a target we can’t handle on our own. This means that we cover a lot of ground.

Each wormhole requires 2 bookmarks, one for each side. Lets say that each J space system has 2.5 holes on average. That makes 5 bookmarks per system. A good scanner can easily get 5 systems in a few hours. That’s 25 bookmarks. 10 independent players scanning gives you 250. 20 makes the full 500.

We can get over 30 players on during the weekend. We clear bookmarks when we hit the 500 limit, oldest first. We have Comms Officers purging old BMs multiple times a day on the weekend. I personally have bookmarked a new hole in the morning, and come back later that evening to find that bookmark deleted with the hole still up, not because of spaiz or error, but because 500 bookmarks were made in between those two times.

So that’s why the number 1 thing I want is more bookmarks. Everything else is icing in my book.

With that out of the way, the icing you’ve offered here is pretty sweet. Bookmark Expiry Lengths would make our Comms Officer jobs a lot easier, since we could set the bookmarks to expire instead of having to clear then constantly. The max wormhole lifetime is over 50 hours, but most holes are gone in 24, so depending on on the hole, a 24 or 48 hour expiry would be useful. This is highly dependent on the max number of bookmarks though, since if the limit was still 500, we could probably have to clear them before they ran out naturally. So this being useful still depends on having a bookmark limit increase (CCPlz)

The ability to have people outside of the corporation use our bookmarks via some kind of access list would also be a boon, as it would mean alts outside of the corp wouldn’t need to be physically handed bookmarks or warp to fleet members, but could use them normally. This would make it easier to have out of corp alts, or to temporarily share our BM chains with others (we have no permanent blues, but we do have a paid wormhole finder program, and could probably give customers temporary access to our chains ).

I don’t think there is anything we couldn’t do with an access list that could be done with a voucher, and given how much of a pain it is to trade vouchers around, I wouldn’t miss them too much.

In conclusion, more bookmarks > fancy bookmarks, but why not both.

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77

Selling mass packs of pings and safespots for entire regions used to be a niche business. Having some sort of dump or “sell” feature for these access lists would retain that niche business.

7 days since 1 day is not necessarily sufficient for wormhole bookmarks. Some 24 hour lifetime holes end up going past 24 hours- 36 or 48 hours would be more useful. 4 hours is a cool feature for EOL wormholes, but honestly I’m not sure how much use it’d get since mapping tools are typically how people mark EOL.

Only for wormhole bookmarks. Maybe for salvaging sites and gank warpins. This would all be at the individual bookmark level, don’t really see much use for folders expiring.

Since you’re having limits on folders- could be useful to have some sort of “last added gets deleted first” checkbox. This would be useful for folders that are constantly rolling through bookmarks (e.g wormholes, sites, etc) and the oldest ones are likely no longer useful. When a new bookmark gets added and the folder is at capacity- delete the oldest and add the new one.

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First of all, thank you for doing this prototype as it’s one of the biggest issues I’ve run into living in Anoikis. (Bookmarks are life there)

  1. The only use case I can think of is auctioning or selling bookmarks through contracts but that is more of an edge case. In any other perceivable way ACL on bookmarks would do the same, but faster and less hassle.

  2. Living in Anoikis I would say 24 hours is enough. Typically, wormholes don’t tend to live longer than 24 hours and if you let data/relic signatures exist beyond that point you might want to rethink your (wormhole) life. :wink:

  3. While it’s nice to have bookmarks expire on an individual level I think it’s more likely you will identify groups of bookmarks (like wormholes) that will need the same expiration. On a folder level would therefore suit me fine as I wouldn’t want to spend a lot of time setting individual bookmarks to expire.

As I am using bookmarks from the right click menu a lot I don’t think I would use subfolders.

While I understand that shared bookmarks are limited I would hope the number would be at least equal or higher than the 500 Corp bookmark limit we have today.

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I was speaking for the Alliance I’m part of, actually - I’ve heard this wish/complaint expressed many times. The scheme offered above is far too complicated for this need, all we want is the ability to share bookmarks via Alliance Locations as well as via Corporation Locations.

Bully for you…

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80

There are a couple of things that come to mind. When sharing the bookmarks to other people the ACL should a little granularity as to who can do what like include the ability to allow/disallow people to add/remove/delete the shared bookmarks.

you should be able to share bookmarks with fleets… The FC sets up the bookmark ACL for the fleet and when you leave the fleet you no longer have access to the fleet bookmarks.

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So how about thinking outside the box here. Do WH´s need to be bm´s at all? once the scanner has scanned it down and named it after the alliance naming convention it could show on the overveiw as gates do today. would give great possibilities for navigating and setting up waypoints and destos.
I for one would love this. the less BM´s we need the better

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