Siege Green - Structure Updates Now Avaialble for Testing

Feature Previews & Feedback Balance and Mechanics
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566

Blackout was always going to be temporary. And the players didn’t leave. they just stopped logging in. And in big enough numbers that it cratered the economy for a month, and you can see exactly where it happened on all the MERs.

The game isn’t going to be diminished because you also have one fewer timer to defend your structures. I think it’s going to be bettered. You disagree. That’s fine - we will see what happens. And if you are right and I am wrong, and suddenly every small group in EVE dies, I will concede you were right and I was wrong, and I will advocate changes to fix what was broken. Just like I have many, many times before.

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567

I thought it was you who objected to putting words into people’s mouths.

But as you say, when that happens, the conversation is over.

Cheers, see you in Reykjavik.

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568

Yeah that is quite obvious. Look at how well Frat has done against Snuffed. Losing most fights even when they had 2:1 numerical advantages.

Again, big blocs and even medium sized blocs are able to for the most part replace their core infrastructure. Losing a structure whether it is a medium, large or XL even, does not really hurt blocs.

569

So your assessment is based on lowsec, in my experience big blocs fight around bubbles tactics more than anything else, also they are not setup with the implants taht you can fly with in lowsec. Snuffed are always going to win against Frat, the Goons had this issue a while back too.

So you are acknowledging that this is hurting small groups, good.

570

Of course my assessment is based on lowsec. That is the region of space I live in.

Where did I ever say it wasn’t going to hurt small groups? I said if you were dumb enough to continuously place structures down after losing so many then you deserve it. I never said this update was not going to hurt a small group.

571

So you think it dumb to fight for space? You make no sense at all.

572

I never said that either. I said it was dumb to continuously allow yourself to lose structures. If you place a structure, defend it and lose it try again. Happens a second time, unlucky. Happens a 3rd, 4th, 5th time, in the same area, then it is probably time to reevaluate.

573

Still not really sure what the intent is with these changes apart from appeasing a bunch of Null Sec players that just seem too lazy to put in the effort ! :rofl:

All these changes achieve is to create a 2nd class tier to structures and back track even further on the promise that was Citadels and Player Structures (POS replacements).

For comparison of stats from ZKillboard (granted these are only ones that are posted to there so not the full stats - Cause someone at CCP could easily get full stats to show what the issue was and why they intend to fix it … don’t see any of that however! :thinking: ). With the Leshak as a comparison.
Structure/Ship Ship Kills Number Lost ISK killed (Trillions) ISK lost (Trillions) Efficiency
Control Towers (combined) 316,357 136,538 38.99 31.23 124.8%
Astrahus 44,297 25,066 10.85 38.47 28.2%
Athanor 9,981 23,687 1.67 38.75 4.3%
Raitaru 3,567 23,917 0.39778 30.95 1.3%
Fortizar 96,215 3,697 19.28 49.06 39.3%
Tatara 5,862 1,064 1.34 15.52 8.6%
Azbel 5,647 3,111 1.19 26.41 4.5%
Leshak 279,521 21,649 166.24 25.48 652.4%

So the numbers pretty much show that medium structures are not exactly unkillable… they’re pretty much falling like flies really !
The numbers also suggest that they really suck at any defence … look at that HUGE 1.3% efficiency on ISK killed for Raitaru then compared to the near 125% on CTs! Sure it’s nothing next to a Leshak of cause.

Sure CTs were around for a longer time to accumulate those stats … also means the over 71K units of Med structures lost is pretty high considering the time they have been around.

Maybe the team should be looking into other things like making med structures (and even Large) more of a challenge and more deadly than less :joy:

As they presently are they are pretty much just a huge con … players see them as a replacement for the old POS setups but already they are just larger isk sinks and bigger rewards for those that destroy as opposed to tools for those that create.
Sure they may have QoL features and simpler to set up and manage but extremely more limited in fitting resources and options (Athanors pretty much now have only 2 modules to chose from for its 3 high slots and only one can be a launcher… and it pretty much runs out of cap after 4 mins of action when fully fit and active).

No way I’d be using a Raitaru (or even Azbel) for BPO research these days longer than a few days. I already know people that have gone back to using NPC stations due of all the nerfs.

Med Structures in particular are a far cry from being any form of POS replacement these days.

I’d advise anyone with structures to use alternatives.
If they want to use them then only have them set for a specific purpose.
Keep them cheap - especially if you can’t get together a defence blob in a couple of days notice. Don’t even bother fitting them as that’s just an added waste of isk really.
Be prepared to have to evac everything with a days notice,
And be prepared to lose them.

I’m pretty sure the ones that started this whole mess were pretty much considered lost when anchored anyway and so you’re going to punish players using them in the way that was promised rather than address any real in game concerns or make any improvements to the ecology of the Eve Universe.

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574

I know several corps that were planning to take down their structures, then the price increase news came out and the owners just quick logging in. I can’t imagine they are the only people in Eve to do so. I expect a bunch of abandoned structures to start showing up in HS.

575

Can anyone tell us how many offline POS towers are anchored in space?
Is “structure spam” only the structures that pilots can see?
Few bother to shoot offline POS towers due to the grind involved.
Weren’t we promised that POS’s would be removed from game and pilots with POS mods in inventory be compensated? I keep thinking game changes are not well thought out. Introducing inexpensive medium structures inevitably led to more pilots deploying them. Now FC’s dislike the effort involved in removing them…oh well lets chop off some arms, btw here’s a band aid quit complaining!

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576

:raiseshand:

I’ve found that I can’t even use public structures for everything because of indicies.

Took a BPO to a public Sotiyo, and it was something like 13b or 17b for the research job (at those prices, even the 4b in error really doesn’t matter). Took it to one of my own, and it was something like 200m.

For manufacturing I bite the bullet and use public structures … but I found I just can’t be competitive so I exited manufacturing.

I’m still trying to sell old stock. I checked one item this past week, and the market looked promising for that to happen eventually, as the number of sell orders was massively reduced though prices have not rebounded yet. I’m guessing that others have also exited.

I could completly forgo using private structures if it wasn’t for punishing indicies.

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577

To clarify for those not POS savvy:

POS have full HP when offline, minus resistances. People often mistake the force field and the tower shield as being the same thing.

The only difference is an offline POS doesn’t have a force field, so one can use higher DPS short-range weapons & ammo, nor online shield hardeners and automated defences, and they won’t enter reinforcement.

578

Well, these invasions typically last some months with the invaders threatening to evict us, so I would definitely consider them an “invasion/eviction” attempt. We are just very stubborn.

579

Some of them left. Some of them logged out, and found other things to do that they enjoyed, and they didn’t come back when it was over.

Blackout started on Friday, Jul 12 of 2019, and ended on Monday, Sep 16.

image

Notice how the numbers more than 2 months after Blackout haven’t recovered to pre-Blackout levels?

Yeah. People left. And some of them never came back.

Edit: what you see there is the peaks immediately start to show week-over-week decline, and the decline accelerates until the end of BO, as Tuzy documented at the time. The recovery wasn’t nearly as quick, and it never completely recovered, even heading into winter, when EVE’s numbers usually go up just from the seasonal shift in the Northern Hemisphere.

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580

You’re exaggerating a bit. Structures will be more attractive to large groups to hit, but overall the structures will actually be more defensible on average. Historically, if we lose the armor timer, we almost always lose the hull timer too(with a few exceptions here and there.) So you can relax a bit eh.

If a larger null group suddenly comes at us, or any small group, then it really doesn’t matter if it’s 2/3 timers, dps cap or no dps cap, etc.

581

This is what Elsebeth said: “But people left. So many people left that CCP reversed the blackout.”

Just once, I’d love to see you contradict someone who isn’t me.

Like one time.

582

Sure! We were told the Blackout would always be temporary, that it was intended for gathering data. Elsebeth’s totally wrong about the reasons given for the end of Blackout, and any implications that Blackout wasn’t intended to be temporary.

At the time, I wrote a short article urging players not to expect too much out of it, and to allow CCP the opportunity to try things and see what happened.

I’m also on-record in both Blackout Threads saying that it’s meant to be a test to gather data. And, you know, predicting that the hunters would be bitching in short order because the only other people out in null would be hunting them.

So, y’know, you’re definitely not the only person I contradict, man. I promise!

Is Elsebeth right about why the ended the Blackout? Is she wrong? Honestly, I don’t know. I know why they said they ended it, but I also know that when he made that announcement, Falcon looked like he’d been chewing on a lemon-and-turd sandwich for a few hours.

So, officially, yes, she’s wrong about why they ended the Blackout. But from Falcon’s reaction and the things being said by CCP in various discords and active CSMs, it sure as hell seemed like the official story was never the whole story.

Besides, I contradicted someone else already! That was to Kenneth! . . . wait…

ARE YOU SECRETLY KENNETH FELD? OMG, FELDUSTRY INFILTRATED BRISC!!

583

A POS requires a moon. There is an inherent maximum limit with POSs that do not exist for citadels, which can be essentially unlimitedly deployed.

It’s not about the grind, it’s about the need to. A handful of supers can RF a large tower in 5 mins flat, but a POS is stationed are nearly every moon for the purpose of removing the ability of random other entities from dropping a POS.
Around nearly all war HQ areas, a group would need to get rid a tower before they can put up their own – and that means several layers of notifications going to the group. it’s a lot easier and sneakier to take a DST in and start anchoring in space.

A few things here – There are a lot of half-finished ideas and promises for the future that CCP has given us over the…decades at this point. Vigilant, Vindicator and Bhalgorn getting their own unique models as opposted to being a reskin of a regular ship is the oldest one that I’m aware of.

CCP also has a history of half-baked ideas and implementation, from the SoE and rogue drone connection that you see from the SOE epic quest that hasn’t been addressed in a decade, the initial Potchven release (needing standing to use gates, as well as a F-U for the EDENCOM sided folks) is a recent one. A for effort, and somewhere been an F and a C- on the results, and then either marginalized to obscurity or updated to a semi-functional state sometime later is the rolling status quo so far… The communication through the forums, as well as the CSM at large has improved this…but there is still a ways to go.

What do you mean by “inexpensive”, and why are you trying to pass that off as if it were an actual conclusion?
A large POS tower by itself is cheaper than a medium structure, even now, so why are POS structures proliferation not a problem?

We really need CCP to lay out a vision of what role structures are intended to have, what balance between the M-L-XL structures look like, and only then can we have enough information to actually come to conclusions – is the intended role of structures matching up to the current emergent gameplay that may or maynot be problematic? Is the risky investment and benefit set up for each category/class of the structures? Are the choices between structures meaningful to the players? Do these X changes match up with the intent, and what potential unintended changes could we expect from those changes?

Otherwise, this ends up being a lot of begging the question, circular reasoning and other sorts of illogical nonsense.

584

I’ve yet to see a system with more upwell stations than moons. In fact, most upwell stations are athanors which are ironically anchored at moons. Although I understand the experience of null blocs engaged in war may differ from mine.

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585

I was waiting for such a sad & simplistic answer.

Btw I know the CSMm it’s election, what it does and your name. And yes I read the resumes of candidates before I vote. Can’t remember your particular views, so probably didn’t vote for you.