So, where IS our war?

■■■■■ ■■■■■■ ■■■■■ ■■ ■■■■■ ■ ■■■■■ ■ ■■■■■ ■ ■ ■ ■■■■ ■■ ■■■ ■■■■ ■■■■■■■■■■■ ■■■ ■■ ■■■ ■■, ■■■ ■■■ ■■■■ ■■■■[■]. ■■■■ ■ ■■■■ ■■■■■!

■. ■■■■ ■ ■■■ ■■■■ ■ ■■■■■ ■■ ■■■■ ■■■■■■■■■■■■■ ■■■■ ■■■■■ ■■■■ ■■■■■■ ■■ ■■■.


That’s getting a bit excessive.


Pol knows what he did. :smirk:

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What I want, is to drive the Amarr off the surface of the planet, by any means possible. Right now it looks like the diplomatic approach might be the best option. As such, it is my goal to provide our Diplomats the best possible position to negotiate from. If that is not clear to you then I would suggest you go and study War-time negotiations.


Negotiations mean meeting in the middle. What you want is to send our diplomats in saying, “This is what we want, and we aren’t leaving until we get it.” That doesn’t work. Ever.

But then again, this is coming from a guy who couldn’t leave his Amarr loyalist corp because of his conscience. Maybe I’m giving you a bit too much credit.



With more words and less insiders, the idea that diplomatic solutions are always about both sides giving in a little and meeting halfway is very simplistic. Often the sides don’t even want similar enough things that their requirements can be thought of being on the same slider that has a middle position.

It is more usual there are several sliders in a situation. It might be possible to arrive to a solution where everyone gets what they want. It might be possible no acceptable solution exists. It’s possible new sliders could be brought to the table that change the acceptable position of others. Pressure you can and are demonstrably willing to put on the enemy is one such slider.

Getting the enemy to give you the terms of peace you want is entirely possible. It assumes starting position where your end-goal for hostilities is not total annihilation but peace under certain conditions, of course.

Diplomacy still has a lot of room to work when both sides have conditions they are not willing to go back on. Terms can be added that will not change your conditions but add to them, or give concessions elsewhere that you don’t care about but they do, say.

It’s messy work, but it’s definitely more than starting from “no slavery” versus “yes slavery” and ending up with “ok you can enslave us but only a little / that half of the planet”.


Which is an argument that totally dies when the diplomacy happens up top, they all are getting what they want, and we’re being enslaved by ■■■■■■■ invitation. Just because yinz guys are putting on the white armor doesn’t mean this war ain’t anything more than a giant ■■■■■■■ used hull sale. CEWMPA ain’t doing nothing but commercializing nationalist ■■■■■■■■ so we can ferry the kind of crazy ■■■■ that usually punches back at their own governments when ■■■■ goes south out to the middle of nowhere, surrounded by people that don’t matter, so they can blow each other up.

■■■■, you notice the Empire didn’t use that convenient little pipe the Blood Raiders used for Matar to run a slave raid even though we’re all pretty ■■■■■■■ sure who made it happen. Think they’d have said, ‘Aw, shucks, looks like that whole making slaving illegal thing was all done on a handshake, but what can you do?’ if that ■■■■ had gone down?

I think we pretty much agree and the only reason you are having a debate with me is you did not understand my original point, which, again, is not about Floseswin, but about how we cannot afford the ■■■■■■■■ you describe anymore.


What do you mean ‘we’? You think we’re fighting harder than the homebodies ■■■■? Someone sure can’t afford it, but my entire ■■■■■■■ point, Floseswin included, is that turning the handle on that meat grinder isn’t actually a ■■■■■■■ problem for anyone with their hand on it. I get your point, the fact you’re looking at Floseswin and haven’t figured out that it explains why your point is bunk is the ■■■■■■■ problem.

I’ll make it easy. Yinz and yours are supposed to be dying. It’s not an untenable byproduct, it’s why there’s a ■■■■■■■ a commercial warzone in the first place. Remember that first post I did, talking about all the ■■■■■■■ domestic ■■■■■■■■ that was going on when Flos kicked off? Ain’t ■■■■■■■ kicking now, is it? Seems like it’s all working as intended.

So where’s your ■■■■■■■ war? The middle of nowhere. Right where it’s supposed to be.

“We” as in the free tribes.

And I appreciate you trying to explain but I assure you I am well aware the warzone is a political gimmick to appease the warmongers, and that Shakor’s government had no intent whatsoever to actually pursue the war despite that being the platform he ran on. For ■■■■’s sake, I was there. I’d have probably died in the ■■■■■■■ Purge myself if not for my status as indie capsuleer. It is also me the Sundsele attacks are trying to put pressure on. I am well aware of that too.

The point is not that I don’t believe this is happening.

The point is it needs to stop happening because what we have is not a status quo, it is a war of attrition, and if it goes on we will lose. A status quo would be worth it. Was worth it. This isn’t.

And further, the point is that will not stop by the “compromises” and “negotiations” and “meeting half way”. Those are the attrition where we cave in a little more after each provocation. We are the smaller party. If we keep on giving equal halves, we’ll run out of stuff to give first.

Yeah, I’m saying it’s not, though. Just because capsuleers and their crews are dying by the ■■■■■■■ hundreds of thousands doesn’t mean “the free tribes” are eroding. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but we ■■■■ like rabbits. Just the kind of folks who go to the warzone might be burning the ■■■■ out.

And that’s probably part of the ■■■■■■■ point. With yinz folks dying, these compromises and negotiations get a LOT ■■■■■■■ easier.

It is not just capsuleers, though. Fleet & Navy fight there too and the tribes supply them. Slaveraids happen. Command fights on ground. And real people die on Floseswin, too.

It’s moving at a speed slow enough that many are able to tell themselves the same as you are: it does not matter, the status quo keeps us safe, as it always did.

But it does not. Things radically changed in the coup and with the CEMWPA, and they changed against us.

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I should clarify, people the government couldn’t give a ■■■■ about wiping off a ledger sheet are dying by the ■■■■■■■ hundreds of thousands. If it was someone who ■■■■■■■ mattered to the government, they wouldn’t have chucked those systems into a ■■■■■■■ treatised warzone in the first ■■■■■■■ place.

Which isn’t a ■■■■■■■ change, the government’s always had people they didn’t give a ■■■■ about and were willing to spend. They just didn’t used to keep those people in a separate wallet.

So what’s your argument for what should be done about it?

Shut the hell up because it is what it is?

EDIT: And no, I am not saying people did not die and bad stuff did not happen before the coup. Horrible stuff happened all the time and often we looked away, because we wanted the status quo. I get that sacrifice and I have been part of it. What I am saying is we are currently bleeding more than the Enemy, in relation, meaning eventually we lose. Before the coup, we bled too, but without the Militia warzone leading to a war of attrition with them, we bled roughly in a balance, even at a pace that made us stronger in relation, meaning eventually we could have won.

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I don’t have an argument. Just making polite ■■■■■■■ conversation.

Negotiations also doesn’t imply meeting directly in the middle. Nor do they require both parties be happy with the outcome of negotiations, only that they honor the points they settle on.

Which is a valid tactic in negotiation. In fact if you don’t go into Negotiations with that mentality you will be walked all over and be on the losing end of the negotiations. It works quite well actually. After all, its the basis of negotiation. That’s how negotiation works. “If you don’t agree to these terms or come to a mutually reasonable arrangement, you will lose it all” is simply negotiating from a position of power.


Fine. So you’ve made the point that governments always tend to sacrifice their citizens for an agenda, and that you don’t believe in my assessment that we are in a war of attrition that we’ll lose eventually.

What’s your next logical conclusion? What do you think should happen re: current government and international politics? What should tribal capsuleers do about it?

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My next logical conclusion? Say ■■■■ it all, find a couple friends that won’t ■■■■ you over (which is the ■■■■■■■ hard part), know the value of what you’ve got to ■■■■■■■ sell, and don’t believe any buyer’s ■■■■■■■■ is about you, the Matari, the Amarr, or anyone else other than what they want to own. That’s my ■■■■■■■ answer, get mine and watch my own damn back and never be a ■■■■■■■ employee to get retired. Get over this idea that anyone is going to look out for me over some kind of comradely ■■■■■■■■, because at best I’m going to get used by people who don’t give a ■■■■ about me and at worst I’m going to get spent the second someone does care enough about me to put me on a ledger. My advice is to know everywhere’s a ■■■■■■■ franchise of Stability Inc. and all the dripping ■■■■■■■■ that comes with it is all you’re gonna drink off its tits.

But I also ain’t about telling anyone to take my ■■■■■■■ answers and run with them. Not like anyone actually wants them anyway, they just want a ■■■■■■■ sounding board. You sure as ■■■■ didn’t ask me what I think because you believe in my boundless ■■■■■■■ wisdom and came looking for enlightenment. ■■■■, you got the answers you’re always going to have drilled into your skull until some algorithm misfires and a drone accidentally replaces your brain burner with a microwave oven or however this ■■■■■■■■ eventually ends. You want a fight, which is probably why 99% of us have this ■■■■ jacked into our brain stems in the first place.

Get used. Or don’t. Whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. I stick to polite ■■■■■■■ conversation.

I really hope that some day, some version of you finds a path to long-term happiness. Until then… you have my sympathy for the misery you inflict upon yourself.